Does Bombadil secretly hate hobbits?

[Radaghast]

It's from The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. Whether it's "canon" is of course up to the individual.

Ah, interesting. I have yet to read Adventures but I've read that Farmer Maggot was not always a hobbit.

 

[Elthir]

I've yet to see an argument (that I recall anyway) for why The Adventures of Tom Bombadil should not be considered canon. I'd say Tolkien surely considered these poems as part of his legendarium.

That said, it's another matter as to whether a given something within a given poem is certainly "true" or not. The poem in which Tom visits Maggot is said to be "probably" composed after the visit of Frodo and his companions to the house of Bombadil.

That said too, why should Tom's visit to Maggot not be true, at least in general? I don't see an internal problem here myself -- compared to, for another example, why one might wonder if a lonely troll really took Perry-the-Winkle home to tea.


And while Galadriel's feet and Elven-toes were the fairest East of the Misty Mountains (as least!), with respect to whether or not I think Tom's visit to Maggot's home is true, let me quote the young Winkle here:

"I ain't a-going to say"

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I do consider them canon -- including the dancing!

 

[Elthir]

And I certainly assumed such a sage (yet still spry), non-squalid, squint-eyed southerner such as yourself might say so SES! It seems sensible to me at least!

And indeed, the Springle-ring is well attested in Tolkien's Segendarium.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Of course, it could be a canon dance!

 

[Deimos]

It's from The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. Whether it's "canon" is of course up to the individual.

Why wouldn't the poem be considered canon?

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I imagine some narrow "canon" to the LOTR text itself.

I don't. 😊

 

[Deimos]

I imagine some narrow "canon" to the LOTR text itself.

I don't. 😊

Oh... I thought everyone here (including moi) was in the "wide interpretation" group.
Maybe there are (I would say there certainly are) earlier writings that Tolkien still recalled in detail , yet never referenced again, even obliquely in TH, LOTR or the Sil, and maybe those partial works or scribblings should not be considered canon.
But he obviously recalled at least some of the poem**, as evidenced by his comment in LOTR, so I would ipso facto consider the poem as canon.

**Was it published in his lifetime? If so, I would say there is no doubt that it is canon.

 

[Deimos]

I do consider them canon -- including the dancing!
View attachment 38173

Is that a drawing by Pauline Baynes? It reminds me of her illustrations in The Chronicles of Narnia.

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

This part is where he stays with Maggot I think

They turned down Maggot's Lane, rattling and bumping,

Tom in the farmer's cart dancing round and jumping.

Stars shone on Bamfurlong, and Maggot's house was lighted;

fire in the kitchen burned to welcome the benighted.

Maggot's sons bowed at door, his daughters did their curtsy,

his wife brought tankards out for those that might be thirsty.

Songs they had and merry tales the supping and the dancing;

Goodman Maggot there for all his belt was prancing,

Tom did a hornpipe when he was not quaffing,

daughters did the Springle-ring, goodwife did the laughing.

When others went to bed in hay, fern, or feather,

close in the inglenook they laid their heads together,

old Tom and Muddy-feet, swapping all the tidings

from Barrow-downs to Tower Hills: of walkings and of ridings;

of wheat-ear and barley-corn, of sowing and of reaping;

queer tales from Bree, and talk at smithy, mill, and cheaping;

rumours in whispering trees, south-wind in the larches,

tall Watchers by the Ford, Shadows on the marches.

Old Maggot slept at last in chair beside the embers.

Ere dawn Tom was gone: as dreams one half remembers,

some merry, some sad, and some of hidden warning.

 

[Deimos]

This part is where he stays with Maggot I think They turned down Maggot's Lane, rattling and bumping,

Tom in the farmer's cart dancing round and jumping.

Stars shone on Bamfurlong, and Maggot's house was lighted;

fire in the kitchen burned to welcome the benighted.

Maggot's sons bowed at door, his daughters did their curtsy,

his wife brought tankards out for those that might be thirsty....

Did you notice that this has nearly the same meter that Tolkien uses in LOTR anytime Tom speaks, not just when he is reciting doggerel.

In the House of Tom Bombadil:
'Here's my pretty lady!' he said, bowing to the hobbits. 'Here's my Goldberry clothed all in silver-green with flowers in her girdle! Is the table laden? I see yellow cream and honeycomb, and white bread, and butter; milk, cheese, and green herbs and ripe berries gathered. Is that enough for us? Is the supper ready?

 

[Elthir]

**Was it published in his lifetime? If so, I would say there is no doubt that it is canon.

Yep. Published by JRRT himself in the 1960s, with a Tolkien-as-translator description placing the poems firmly within the world of Middle-earth.

There's even a poem with a cat in it too 🐾

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Is that a drawing by Pauline Baynes? It reminds me of her illustrations in The Chronicles of Narnia.

Yes, it's included in the book.

 

[Deimos]

Yep. Published by JRRT himself in the 1960s, with a Tolkien-as-translator description placing the poems firmly within the world of Middle-earth.

There's even a poem with a cat in it too 🐾

OK..Thanks for that. 🙂
So I consider it canonical. (Case closed! 😄)

 

[TrackerOrc]

How do we determine that it does? 🤨 The text as much as says he remembers the rhyme after attacking the Barrow-wight.

• "Fog on the Barrow-downs"

To say otherwise is to second-guess the author.


Can you cite a source for this? I don't see any indication of it in the book. The only line I see re: Maggot knowing Tom is the following:

• "In the House of Tom Bombadil"

I don't know but as I said before I think you're overthinking things here. Expecting tight continuity with every aspect of fictional lore is usually a vain hope. Also, you're saying Frodo is robbed for growth for being given a magical rhyme, but you also expect Tom to have provided Shire residents refuge from Saruman, which would therefore hobbits of growth. Lastly, you're convinced Tom has left the OF, but the only interaction we know of is with Farmer Maggot, his neighbor. Their interaction might be similar to that between Tim Taylor and Mr. Wilson.

We can't determine it, but it's worth speculating surely? He consciously remembers the rhyme after his encounter with the BW, but I'm suggesting that he knew it was there all along, which may (and only may) have helped with with the actual encounter.

AB definitely states that he spends the night in Maggot's farm; I regard this as canon as it was published by Tolkien in his lifetime.

I actually don't expect tight continuity or anything like it, and it would be a much lesser work if there was such an exposition heavy emphasis. I'm just after a character who makes some kind of sense, which Bombadil doesn't. As for his helping Frodo vs helping the Shire, I don't think the two points can be conflated. The one is a personal interaction which Bombadil himself sets up; the other would be a generalised action to help the hobbits en masse - there is no pesonal growth involved in the second action.

Wouldn't Bombadil make so much more sense if there was a line in the Appendices where he and Gandalf both bring aid to the Shire?

 

[Radaghast]

We can't determine it, but it's worth speculating surely? He consciously remembers the rhyme after his encounter with the BW, but I'm suggesting that he knew it was there all along, which may (and only may) have helped with with the actual encounter.

I don't see any worth in it. I don't see why we should try to pry into imagined motives on the part of the author.

AB definitely states that he spends the night in Maggot's farm; I regard this as canon as it was published by Tolkien in his lifetime.

I don't know who AB is, but if Tom went to Farmer Maggots to toss a few back, fine, I'm okay with it. I don't see it as a sticking point. Maybe the Maggot Farm is within a buffer zone.

I actually don't expect tight continuity or anything like it, and it would be a much lesser work if thee was such an exposition heavy emphasis. I'm just after a character who makes some kind of sense, which Bombadil doesn't.

I think I've covered this before. Bombadil is an intentional enigma. I think his not making sense is kind of the whole point.

As for his helping Frodo vs helping the Shire, I don't think the two points can be conflated. The one is a personal interaction which Bombadil himself sets up; the other would be a generalised action to help the hobbits en masse - there is no pesonal growth involved in the second action.

Yes, there is. The other hobbits have to learn what the outside world is like too, even if Aragorn thereafter declared the Shire off limits to all humans (including himself). And, yes, hobbits died (nineteen, to be exact), but life is harsh.

Wouldn't Bombadil make so much more sense if there was a line in the Appendices where he and Gandalf both brnig aid to the Shire?

It wouldn't make much sense to me to leave such a line in the Appendices. Especially not after Gandalf basically washed his hands of the matter before he leaves the four Hobbits at the border. Also, it's a fairly detailed account of how the hobbits scoured the Shire. It'd be odd to add a line that said, "Oh, by the way, Gandalf and Tom Bombadil helped too."

 

[Elthir]

I don't know who AB is, but if Tom went to Farmer Maggots. . .

I'm guessing Andreth [daughter of] Boromir. See The War of the Jewels, The House of Beor, p. 231 (HMC first edition).

Or Alice Berúthiel if made-up names are allowed.

AB might be short for ATB ("Adventures Tom Bombadil") which is short for The Adventures of Tom Bombadil; but as that would make "who" a book, I'm going with Andreth.

 

[Radaghast]

I do consider them canon -- including the dancing!
View attachment 38173

Those are some miniature greyhounds 🐶

 

[Elthir]

I also noticed the footwear (in the artwork).

🐾

 

[TrackerOrc]

I don't see any worth in it. I don't see why we should try to pry into imagined motives on the part of the author.


I don't know who AB is, but if Tom went to Farmer Maggots to toss a few back, fine, I'm okay with it. I don't see it as a sticking point. Maybe the Maggot Farm is within a buffer zone.


I think I've covered this before. Bombadil is an intentional enigma. I think his not making sense is kind of the whole point.


Yes, there is. The other hobbits have to learn what the outside world is like too, even if Aragorn thereafter declared the Shire off limits to all humans (including himself). And, yes, hobbits died (nineteen, to be exact), but life is harsh.


It wouldn't make much sense to me to leave such a line in the Appendices. Especially not after Gandalf basically washed his hands of the matter before he leaves the four Hobbits at the border. Also, it's a fairly detailed account of how the hobbits scoured the Shire. It'd be odd to add a line that said, "Oh, by the way, Gandalf and Tom Bombadil helped too."

Couple of things I need to apologise for here.

AB is The Adventures of Tom Bombadil; I thought AB was acceptable as an abbreviation much like TH or LoTR. My mistake.

I think speculating on the book is at the heart and soul of what we do in the Forum - does a Balrog have wings, who is the worst member of the Fellowship, how awesome is Gollum - surely these questions have their own worth?

And my point about Bombadil sending aid to the Shire concerned the Long Winter, not tackling Saruman's thugs - I said he could provide a refuge for hobbits in the Old Forest, I should have been more explicit.