Doom and Fate

[Lhunithiliel]

the DOOM of Elves

and

the FATE of Men


How about having a nice discussion on this?
Well?
Shall we....... ?

 

[Niniel]

I'd love to! It's complicated though. What exactly do you want to know? Why the fate of the Elves is called doom and that of Men fate? I'd say that the Elves are doomed from the start to dwindle and give way to Men, who will dominate Middle-Earth. After all, it was in the song of the Ainur that men would dominate. Whereas the fate of men is not exactly stated, at least I can't think of any quote that says that it is clear what will happen to men in the end. But maybe you mean something else?

 

[goldmare]

Maybe "the fate of men" means the fact that they can't live forever, like the elves can. I heard somewhere that the elves call it their Doom that they CAN live so long, and that men call it THEIR Doom that they CAN'T live so long. Then again, this may not be what you were referring to. I guess it's open for interpretation.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

"DOOM" and "FATE".
English is not my native language, yet I know these two words are synonims...
However, reading Tolkien, I get the impression that he mostly uses "doom" concerning Elves and "fate" concerning Men.
So, I got the idea that perhaps one should understand these two words in a different way! I started thinking that Tolkien used them in this way not by chance and that he meant to express some important idea in this way. What would it be?

Well, can we assume that he wished to have us understand that in his world, Men were the ONLY race who could in fact be able to control their life-deeds? And that whatever they do, the outcome depends on THEM, not on Gods' will.
While Elves are doomed right from their awakening to be bound to Arda and be a part of the constant circle of life of this world, Men seem freed of this. Perhaps that's why they did not care too much for ME as the Elves did. Perhaps they really felt somewhere deep in their souls and mind that the place they live in is in their dominion and it only depended on their will how they should live.

In short:
Men had fate, but were in power to change it and arrange their lives as they wished.
Elves were doomed. They lived a life pre-ordered by the God.

Well???
Your comments?

 

[FoolOfATook]

I think it's significant that the Elves call death "The gift of Men" while Men call death "The doom of Men". I think to a certain extent Elves and Men envied one another- the story of Numenor is the story of Men seeking immoratality, while at the same time you have elves rejecting their immortality, effectively gaining the gift or doom of men. The grass is always greener on the other side.

 

[Niniel]

It allc omes down to the question whether Elves and Men had a free will. I think they both do. What will happen to Elves and Men is pre-ordained in the Ainulindale, but not everything. E.g. is the fact that the Noldor left Valinor and the oath that Feanor and his sons swore all planned? I think not. They could have done something else if they wanted. Elves are doomed from the start to disappear and give over the dominion of Middle-Earth to Men, and I think you can call this the doom of the Elves. Maybe the only context in which Tolkien uses 'doom' for the Elves is here. But in other ways they also had a free will, just as Men.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Yeah! This is what I'm trying to figure out....
Did Elves live their lives by the grand "scenario" of Illuvatar and Men did not?
But on the other hand.... All those prophecies of old... They seem to govern Men's lives pretty strongly! How often it is to read smth. like "...as prophecy said...." or "...as it is sung in the tales from ages forgotten...." (not exact quotes!).
So, this is what I'm trying to find out...
Is there a specific and particular difference in the use of the words "doom" and "fate" in Tolkien's writings?
And fi so, what was his intention in using the one or the other word?
Is my impression wrong that he uses the "doom"-word more often for Elves, to hint even in this smallest detail their pre-ordered lives....
Yet "fate" for Men- as the ONLY free-will race in ME? Fate they had, but could change it!
Elves could not change their doom. Whatever they did, they always have to face the inevitable end of their race, as it was so doomed....

"doom".... "fate"....
I shall have to check what my "Oxford" has to say about this....

 

[Lantarion]

Everything that happens is according to the grand scheme of Ilúvatar!
But I have to disagree with your statement about "fate" and "doom" being synonimous to one another.
If it is your "fate" to become a great warrior, for example, it is something that you accept and acknowledge more freely. A "fate" is almost always something positive.
If it is your "doom" to marry your sister and kill yourself (*cough*Túrin!*cough* ), then it is a negative thing that you curse and wish would not occur.

The Doom of Elves is something that is certain, that is definately going to happen; yet they know what is going to happen to them. They will go to the Halls of Mandos and live there until Dagor Dagorath and the Change of the World.
The fate of Men is uncertain to all bar Eru himself, and yet is a gift, so it is somehting neutral or good.

 

[Niniel]

But I think Tolkien often makes it clear that people (both Elves and Men) have a free choice, and that if they turn out to be ''bad' people, it's their own fault. So I can't believe that everything that happens is according to Ilúvatar's plan. What we really need is some quotes as evidence for on or other of the options. I can only think of one:

Here ends the Silmarillion. If it has passed from the high and the beautiful to darknees and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come ad the Marring be amended, Manwe and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.

This would suggest that all the bad things that happened to Arda were 'fate'; but it's not clear whether it was bound to happen because it was in the Ainulindale, or because it was a logical consequence of the fact that Morgoth was there and had brought evil into the world. Also it suggests that Manwe, Varda and Mandos know what will happen, but again it's not clear whether they know it because they caused it (as being gods) or that they just know it because they are all-knowing and they know that certain people will make it happen by their own choice.
Phew, this is getting quite complicated...

 

[Lhunithiliel]

From "Qxford dictionary"

DOOM: noun; death or destruction; any terrible event that you cannot avoid

FATE: noun; 1/ the things, especially bad things, that will happen or have happened to sbd. 2/ the power that is believed to control everything that happens and that cannot be stopped or changed.

Now it seems that "fate" is a stronger power!

 

[goldmare]

The thing is, if people have free will, doesn't that mean they can partly choose their own fate? Or is free will not really free? I mean, if you are destined to do something or become someone in particular, and there is no getting out of it, then you don't really have a choice, do you? Or is there some kind of mutual balance between fate and free will, that governs Arda? And is there a difference between destiny and fate? Oh dear, I'm getting into a philosophical discussion that could go on for years. I'll just stop now.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Exactly, goldmare!
This is what I'm trying to understand.....Or at least understand what Tolkien's understanding was on the matter!

Becuase, he says Men were created with the freedom to chose their life paths and deeds.... Then, neither doom, nor fate governs them, but what they themselves do!

Some may say....This is only an imaginary world - Tolkien's... But I wouldn't agree! I feel there are some UNIVERSAL truths of OUR world revealed in his invented world....
So, if he gave the race of Men the interpretation we know of, then he must have had a good reason for it! I feel as if he had grasped a very important significance of Men and one should dig in and find it out......and perhaps then one should understand better some things around .... in "real" life.

So, perhaps the more exact question would be.....
Did Tolkien mean Men to be NOT doomed and in control over their fate?
OR.....
Just the other way around...... Men have a particular purpose set by someone, somewhere and somehow ..... and whatever Men do, it is becuase of this set order.... (the prophecies?!!!)

 

[Niniel]

My English dictionary says for 'doom' also: judgement
This is very important, because it means that doom is especially something that is laid upon you by the judgement of another. This other can of course be a god/gods, so in that sense it could mean that doom is an unavoidable punishment, so it is always something bad. This would be the case with the 'doom of the Noldor', which is a punishment for the Noldor's behaviour, spoken by Mandos.
I think in general Tolkiens uses doom for things that are bad and are the result of a decision by the Valar to punish someone for his bad deeds, or by Morgoth (in the case of Húrin). Or if someone just feels he is punished, even though it might not be so (as in the 'doom of Men', which is how Men called death, whereas the Elves called death a gift to Men).
To find a better answer we could do 3 things:
-analyse the Ainulindale to see what is actually prophesied in it, and what isn't. I think many things that happened are not prophesied, so there is free will for Elves and Men.
-analyse all Tolkien's work, espcially the Sil, to see where he used 'doom' and where he uses 'fate'.
-ask someone who has read the HOME and the Letters if Tolkien himself has answered it somewhere.
I have no time for lengthy analysis, so maybe someone else has???

 

[goldmare]

Maybe this will shed some light on something- just what, I'm not sure. This quote is from "Of the Beginning of Days," from the Silmarillion.

"For it is said that after the departure of the Valar there was silence, and for an age Iluvatar sat alone in thought. Then he spoke and said: "Behold I love the Earth, which shall be a mansion for the Quendi(elves) and the Atani(men)! But the Quendi shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my Children; and they shall have the greater bliss in this world. But to the Atani I will give a new gift." Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as FATE to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.

But Iluvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; and he said: "These too in their time shall find that all they do rebounds at the end only to the glory of my work"...

It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon wither the Elves know not... Death is their FATE, the gift of Iluvatar, which as time wears even the Powers shall envy."

 

[Fading Evenstar]

This is confusing me

OK. I don't think that doom and fate are synonyms... well actually they could be if fate was used in the negative sense... but fate is more generalized than doom. Doom is immediately something bad... yet fate can be good or bad. For Elves it is a doom, as their people are fading and when they should be living forever, they're not... and then there's the men who's fate is not to live forever, but to meet their doom which is part of their fate...

OK, I'm just confusing myself. I don't think what I just said makes much sense. I'll just read your posts

 

[Harry_Potter]

the elves are doomed due to dubious leadership perhaps?

 

[goldmare]

Ok, Harry_Potter, I do not object to your screen name (I happen to love the HP books myself), but change your signature, or you will not find very many friends here.

 

[faila]

If something is preknown it is predetermined right?
For instance if a all knowing being excists then he knows everything that will happen theirfore all is predetermined.

As many people know tolkiens writtings can reflect his own life. Did tolkien as a christian believe in a utter freewill in all aspect or did he believe that he was "predestined"? I am not catholic so I do not have any idea as to what the catholics would say about this matter. This though may not have anything to do with it, im just saying that his own thoughts about this world may of affected his writings.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Please, let me paraphrase your words a little, becuase I think that what is predetermined is preknown

Besides, I think religion does not have much to do with the universal truths. I see religion (Catholic, or Orthodox, or whichever) just as another attempt to explain those truths....and I'm not sure they had much success in it .....except, perhaps, the Budhism.... I guess.

Anyway, analysing Tolkien, I personally get the impression that he wanted very, very much to "cry out loud" to the race of Men telling them that we are here for a purpose and we should look deeper to find it.

Call it a fate, for fate I see as something more positive than negative.
While doom definitely brings the "air" of something inevitably bad that will come for sure.

Fate seems controllable, while doom - not.

Now, if to return to the initial question, perhaps Elves are more often associated with the word doom becuase for Men the time for relying on somebody else has finished. Elves have gone! For good!

And maybe this was Tolkien's way to remind People that they shall have to understand that their fate[/] and the fate of the world they live in depends entirely on their will, their deeds....

Mhm.... Too much philosophy... Sorry!

 

[Niniel]

I don't think that anything that is preknown is predetermined. Many gods don't exist in the normal human time-frame, that is, for them eternity and one moment are the same. Do in the same moment they can see everything that will happen, but not necessarily because they are the cause of it, but because they can see that it will happen as a result of men's actions. I can't really explain this but I hope you see what I mean.