🐲Dragons: Why do they have free will?

[gate7ole]

We know that the Flame Imperishable is only in Illuvatar:

Yet Melkor found not the Fire, for it is with Ilúvatar

When Aule tried to make the dwarves, he couldn't give them independent will:

And the voice of Ilúvatar said to Aule: "For thou hast from me as a gift thy own bring only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle."

Also, it is clearly expressed that the Orcs were not a new race, but corrupted elves and that Melkor would not give life of its own to any creature:

all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise.

Another fact is that the Dragons were first bred by Melkor and that they were not Maiar (like the Balrogs). Here I find an inconsistence. Although Melkor didn't have the Flame Imperishable and couldn't give will to the creatures he bred, he actually did breed the race of dragons and they were far from not having their own will. Smaug for example was an independent evil creature, who worked for himself. He had absolute control of his actions and a free will. Glaurung was also more or less independent (in terms that he could think and decide).
Is there any inconsistence? Is it possible that it was in Tolkien's uncompleted thought that the dragons would evolve into spirits, so that they would be able to have free will? What do you think of this matter?

 

[YayGollum]

Huh. Well, first of all, I kind of thought that Aule gave the Dwarves free will. Didn't Eru show up and say that little quote you gave, then Aule was about to kill them with his hammer, but they flinched and Eru was like, "Woah! They do have minds of their own! Okay, you can keep them." sorry I don't have a book with me right now.
Anyways, where did you find that Morgoth made the dragons all by himself? I never saw anything that said where they definitely came from. I kind of thought that they were just corrupted crocodiles or something. Also, maybe Morgoth just sang about them before his power to make things like that was taken away.

 

[Confusticated]

That was my inital thought YayGollum..but here is quote that you are probably reffering to.

The Aulë took up a great hammer to smite the Dwarves; and he wept. But Ilúvatar had compassion upon Aulë and his desire, because of his humility; and the Dwarves shrank from the hammer and were afraid, and they bowed down their heads and begged for mercy. And the voice of Ilúvatar said to Aulë: 'Thy offer I accepted even as it was made. Dost thou not see that these things have now a life of their own, and speak with their own voices? Else they would not have flinched from thy blow, nor from any command of thy will.' Then Aulë cast down his hammer and was glad, and he gave thanks to Ilúvatar, saying: 'May Eru bless my work and amend it!'

I believe this shows that Iluvatar gave to them free will in his compassion.

So I don't think Iluvatar was saying "Whoa! They're thinking for themselves"
I think he was pointing out to Aule "look what I did, My friend but I will not bail you out again"

 

[YayGollum]

Yeah, I guess you could interpret it that way. I just thought the book was saying that Eru threw some gobs of mercy on him, then it said what the Dwarves were doing the whole time. oh well. Maybe your right. I just like my idea better.

 

[gate7ole]

About the dwarves, I didn't say that eventually they had no will. I said that Aule couldn't give them free will without the Flame Imperishable which only Illuvatar had.
But the point is not about the dwarves. It's about the dragons.
So, YayGollum you doubt that the dragons were bred by Melkor? I think it is written somewhere in HOME (I think vol V) but I couldn't find it. But even if they were "corrupted crocodiles or something" or "he just sang about them before his power to make things like that was taken away" as you state, he couldn't give them free will.
So the matter is still on the air.

 

[Anamatar IV]

about how morgoth made dragons:

maybe they were corrupted eagles. Just a thought.

 

[YayGollum]

Well, if they were corrupted crocodiles, then they would have already had whatever free will Eru gave them, but Morgoth would have enhanced their intelligence later. I don't know. If they were some crazy things that Morgoth sang about, I don't know. Maybe Eru just said, "Okay, let's make this interesting. I'll let Mel have his fun." Anyways, yeah, I'd want to see that quote from HOME sometime. Argh! I need to find those books up here!

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Dragons are one of my favourite topics, gate7ole!
I am glad you have opened this thread!

Now, who knows what creatures Morgoth used to create the Dragons?!
I remember in one of the earlier battles between the elves and Melkor, there was a Dragon that came out to defend his Master, but I remember it was described as sort of "not quite ready" yet. (I'm sorry I can't just right now provide the quote) Later, the same Dragon attacked Gondolin but that time he was already powerful...... Oh! I might be shamefully mistaken! Anyway, I will dedicate myself to this topic and I'l post later tonight. I have to remember well all those Dragons and which of them acted where...
As for their free will, there is a theory that the Dragons were created by the eagles and we all know the eagles were the flying Maiar of Manwe. Looking at all the creatures Melkor created, he actually corrupted and twisted their outlook and enslaved their minds (like with the enthralled elves for example), which means that the creatures that he used already HAD their own mind = free will, and what Melkor did was to take away this FREEDOM of mind and subject it to his own will. As for Dragons... Well, I somehow can't imagine they really had FREE will of their own. I think that Morgoth just let them act as they liked for all they did was evil and this suited the Dark Lord's plans perfectly. They were sort of flying and fire-breathing Saurons

I'll be back on this topic!

 

[Confusticated]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Dragons are one of my favourite topics, gate7ole!
I am glad you have opened this thread!

Now, who knows what creatures Morgoth used to create the Dragons?!
I remember in one of the earlier battles between the elves and Melkor, there was a Dragon that came out to defend his Master, but I remember it was described as sort of "not quite ready" yet. (I'm sorry I can't just right now provide the quote) Later, the same Dragon attacked Gondolin but that time he was already powerful...... Oh! I might be shamefully mistaken!

Mistaken but hopefully not shameful.
That Dragon was Glaurung. He was described as "young" and not fully grown. He didn't live to do battle in Gondolin ..but you may have ben thinking of The Fifth battle wherein he shows up fully grown.

 

[Walter]

Lhun, maybe this is the quote you have had in mind:

Again after a hundred years Glaurung, the first of the Urulóki, the fire-drakes of the North, issued from Angband's gates by night. He was yet young and scarce half-grown, for long and slow is the life of the dragons, but the Elves fled before him to Ered Wethrin and Dorthonion in dismay; and he defiled the fields of Ard-galen. Then Fingon prince of Hithlum rode against him with archers on horseback, and hemmed him round with a ring of swift riders; and Glaurung could not endure their darts, being not yet come to his full armoury, and he fled back to Angband, and came not forth again for many years. - Chapter 13; Of the Return of the Noldor

As for the origin of dragons:

For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.

The quote above would IMO leave room for the speculation, that dragons might be corrupted spirits as well as Balrogs. From the following quotes one might gather that dragons were rather high up in the hierarchy of Melko's forces:

In the front of that fire came Glaurung the golden, father of dragons, in his full might; and in his train were Balrogs, and behind them came the black armies of the Orcs in multitudes such as the Noldor had never before seen or imagined.

There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons, and Glaurung father of dragons. The strength and terror of the Great Worm were now great indeed, and Elves and Men withered before him; and he came between the hosts of Maedhros and Fingon and swept them apart.
Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men

 

[gate7ole]

In your posts I read some very interesting thoughts.
a)they didn't exactly have free will, Morgoth let them act freely.
But it is the same thing. If someone can be left free to act, despite actually helping others, he is still independent. Remember Smaug. He was not controlled by anyone, Morgoth and Sauron were both out of picture at the time. He just wanted to obtain the treasure of Erebor.
b)do the dragons come from the eagles?
I doubt it, since the first dragons didn't have wings (Glaurung). The first winged dragons appeared in the War of Wrath (Ancalagon). Do you suppose that Morgoth corrupted the eagles, but at the beginning they couldn't fly? I don't think so.
c)are the dragons Maiar?
We read in HOME V: "and Morgoth bred orcs and dragons and other foul creatures" (sorry no quote). Also, while the Balrogs are explicitely said that they are Maiar, the dragons aren't at all referred to Valaquenta, which probably implies that they are not such spirits. Tolkien would have referred to such an important race if it was true.
d)the dragons were stronger than the balrogs.
True. From the quotes Walter gives, it is obvious that dragons were a more superior race than the balrogs. During the Elder Days when the Elves were in full stature and strength, they could kill a few balrogs in a single fight, but dragons were too strong even for them. Also, we shouldn't forget that they might have overcome the host of Valinor at the War of Wrath but for the intervention of Earendil.
This extreme strength is the most fascinating aspect of the dragons. That's why I would like to know their origins and understand why they had free will.
Maybe my question will be left unanswered, like many other questions of the mythology of Tolkien.

 

[Confusticated]

They origin of the dragons might be the same as that of Ungoliant.
Both were like beasts in form but they were like the people in that they had intelligence and could speak.
No one knows from where Ungoliant came though.
All we hear about this are the beliefs of some of the Eldar

Ungoliant had made her abode. The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself

They were either free-willed beasts somehow made intelligence by Melkor, or they were creatures already with intelligence and free will.
Anyhow, Melkor grabbed them up and tinkered with them.
Okay just for believablity (that a word?)...here's an idea on how Melkor might have accomplished this. We know they were not Maiar, could they have been half Maiar? I think it likely because these dragons had magic abilities. It would also explain a very long life without immortality..as with a Half elf who chooses to be mortal. How would he mix a Maia and a beast? Well, I s'pose (remember Thingol & Melian) he could have taken a currupted Maia, and had this take on the form of a beast and then mated them. Then he does his own selective breeding to get the results he's after.


Or it could be that Iluvatar pulled one over on everybody and created dragons as they were when we met them...

 

[gate7ole]

The comparison Ungoliant with dragons, I think is not correct, since Ungoliant wsa never said to be bred by anyone. She was just a spirit later corrupted by Melkor. The dragons were not from the beginning. They were bred.

But I liked your next thought about the creation of dragons. If we reject any other improbable explication (corrupted eagles/intervention by Eru ...), then the dragons must have come from an already existing race and the most probable is the Balrogs.

 

[Confusticated]

Originally posted by gate7ole
The comparison Ungoliant with dragons, I think is not correct, since Ungoliant wsa never said to be bred by anyone. She was just a spirit later corrupted by Melkor. The dragons were not from the beginning. They were bred.

My comparison with Ungoliant may be incorrect but I do not agree with your reasoning.

As for her being just a spirit currupted by Melkor - that is just what some of the Eldar say. Unless I have overlooked this stated elsewhere by the author?

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Confusticated
Mistaken but hopefully not shameful.
That Dragon was Glaurung. He was described as "young" and not fully grown. He didn't live to do battle in Gondolin ..but you may have ben thinking of The Fifth battle wherein he shows up fully grown.

True!
I have checked and it was Glaurung. I remember well what he did to Turin (one of my favourite characters!)

Within the topic, comes a question:
Why do you think the Dragons were so greedy for treasures?

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by gate7ole
d)the dragons were stronger than the balrogs.
True. From the quotes Walter gives, it is obvious that dragons were a more superior race than the balrogs. During the Elder Days when the Elves were in full stature and strength, they could kill a few balrogs in a single fight, but dragons were too strong even for them. Also, we shouldn't forget that they might have overcome the host of Valinor at the War of Wrath but for the intervention of Earendil.
This extreme strength is the most fascinating aspect of the dragons. That's why I would like to know their origins and understand why they had free will.
Maybe my question will be left unanswered, like many other questions of the mythology of Tolkien.

That sounds strange. Was Melkor's power of creation so enormous as to excel the "creative power" of Iluvatar himself? (Dragons=Melkor's creation, Balrogs=Eru's creation).Walter's quote does seem to prove the fact that dragons are stronger (I'm not sure if they are superior in every aspect)...
Not that it matters much,but I've noticed that it's always Elves vs. Balrogs & Men vs. Dragons. The older "peoples" are fighting each other and the yonger each other.

 

[Walter]

I have found again a few interesting details about dragons which I have not paid attention to in my first reading of the LostTales. Tolkien gives two different descriptions there, in the tale of Turambar and the Foalókë the dragons are described very similar to the Silmarillion (except that he doesn't mention there, that Glaurung was the very first of this breed), which is btw. very similar to the Fafnir in the Edda.

However in the The Fall of Gondolin they are inanimate creatures, forged in a joint labor by Melkor's "smiths and sorcerers".

More details and the quotes can be found here .

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Within the topic, comes a question:
Why do you think the Dragons were so greedy for treasures?

Lhunithiliel, maybe that's just the way dragons are...

In the early German and Norsk mythology the descriptions of dragons are very similar to Tolkien's descriptions:

A great cunning and wisdom have they, so that it has been long said amongst Men that whosoever might taste the heart of a dragon would know all tongues of Gods or Men, of birds or beasts, and his ears would catch whispers of the Valar or of Melko such as never had he heard before. Few have there been that ever achieved a deed of such prowess as the slaying of a drake, nor might any even of such doughty ones taste their blood and live, for it is as a poison of fires that slays all save the most godlike in strength. Howso that may be, even as their lord these foul beasts love lies and lust after gold and precious things with a great fierceness of desire, albeit they may not use nor enjoy them.

Did you ever read the story of Sigurd and Fafnir? Fafnir there suits the description above very well, IIRC. If I'm not very much mistaken Tolkien even admits that somewhere in the letters...

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Speaking about the origin and the behaviour of dragons, we have so far applied Tolkien writings only.
But these creatures do not exist ONLY in the myths and legends of the peoples in Northern Europe.
The interesting (for me) point is that dragons exist in the tales and legends of almost all the peoples on our planet!
Let’s take for example the fairy-tales of the folklore of my people (Southern Europe). There are two types of dragons in our tales – those who fly and those who don’t – they respectively have two different names, but mostly “ours” didn’t fly. “Our” dragons were evil, greedy, they too cast a spell on their victim by the glance of their eyes…. “Our” dragons, in addition, liked kidnapping young girls (preferably beautiful or/and princesses), they also attacked the villages and often killed and ate people as a “dessert” to their “main menu” – cattle. “Our” dragons lived either in the deep forest or very often in deep dungeons or wells far below the ground. And they too were very fond of treasures (the usual treasure “our” dragons guarded was a golden apple)! But they were EVIL!

On the other hand, let’s take into consideration the dragons from the Far East. There, these creatures were not at all evil! Just on the contrary! They helped the heroes to beat the “bad guys”! When necessary, they flew out of their caves (they usually dwelled in deep caves high in the mountains, though some lived in the deep sea) to destroy a mountain and let the waters of a river flow freely into a valley, or they came to help in great battles but always on the side of the “good”…They were GOOD.
But these, too, like their Europeans cousins, liked and had large hoards!

So, one starts wondering (at least I do!) that there must have been such creatures that really existed in the early history of the human civilizations. I think of them as some latest branches of the great dinosaurs. What impresses me most, however, that they existed in ages so near (relatively, of course) to our contemporary days! Didn’t King Arthur’s knights fight dragons? They did. And according to some research, King Arthur lived somewhere in the 13-th century! So close to our time!

There is NO explanation, however why these creatures were so greedy!

From the p.o.v. of mythology, ANY mythology, people had to find explanation to the existence of these creatures, just as they sought the origin of everything surrounding them. But human mind has this peculiarity that whenever it cannot understand smth., it invents. Aren’t we the greatest inventors?! And we are still doing the same - with things still unexplainable to us!
That is why, I suppose, Tolkien’s dragons too did not have clearly stated origin nor explanation. It is mentioned that Melkor (perhaps the first gene-engineer) bred them – but from what ?

Who can tell? ….
And, by the way, don’t you sometimes think that whenever smth. becomes KNOWN it stops being INTERESTING? How would we feel about Tolkien fantasy world IF there was NO fantasy in it and IF everything was plainly explained?!

 

[Walter]

Aaah yes, the dragons that steal virgins...I think I've read a few fairy-tales about those and come to think of it, we have a few local sagas were dragons are mentioned...


I too think that the dragons we find in mythology or fairy tales are indeed relatives of the dinosaurs. The reptiles nowadays come pretty close, genetically, lizards resemble little dragons perfectly and especially the Komodowaran (Komodo-Dragon?; up to 3m long and > 200kg) could IMO already be considered a dragon.


edited again due to major spelling disorder

 

[Confusticated]

When considering the origins of Tolkien's dragons I do not see why we should give much weight to dragons created by other people.

I don't know if I could go as far as calling Melkor a genetic engineer because I do not htink he had the scientific knowledge of genetics. I think we would be more of a bio-engineer or some other made up word..
Anyhow, with my belief that dragons are most likely part Maia I think that would explain the So Called genetic engineering. Maia could take on all sorts of shapes, so if Melkor wanted a winged dragon all he'd have to do is taken one without wings and mate it with a Maia who is a winged dragon.
We already know that when I Maia takes a shape they are honestly biologicly that shape, not some empty form that is just for looks and whatnot.
We know this because Melian was a fully functional elf and then some. She mated with an elf.
So a currupt Maia of Melkor's could (so it seems to me) ...ah! Let me outline it.

1) a. There was Thingol the Elf
b. there was large beast, probably reptilish and very study(we'll say male)
2) a.Melian the Maia took on the shape of an elf. she had magic Maia abilities though
b.some currupt Maia of Melkor's took on the shape like the big reptile beast (we'll say female) thought she has magic Maia abilities (we'll say with fire)
3) a. Melian was a biologicly a female elf - so could mate with an elf
b. the Maia beast was biologicly the beast - so could mate with that beast
4) a.the offspring of Melian and Thingol would have charactoristics of both parents therefore if Melian had lets say extra long legs, so would Luthien. Now Luthien having a mother Maia would have magic capabilties like her mother, (her voice, what she did with her hair)
b. if the Maia-beast, had some extra special charactoristics (though remaining biologicly close enough to mate) that the male beast did not have (we'll say, longer claws and tougher skin) the offspring would have charactoristics of both so it's skin would be tougher than it's fathers and it's claws would be greater. It would also have magic abilities of it's Maia mother - fire

If a half human/half elf being would have an extra long life (between the length of mortal and immortal) except the those who got to choose to be counted as elves.
then...
it might be fair enough to go ahead and assume that a half maia/half mortal beast would get a longer lifespan because of it's Maia parent.
So the offspring of the beast and the Maia-shaped-as-beast would have a long life as do dragons, and it would have special charactoristics like claw, wings, super-tough scales, and magic abilities with fire.

There you have a dragon.
Melkor may not have created them this way but I do not see why this couldn't have been done.

Melkor could have did this with many Maia and beasts, he then could have mixed (bred) them to further enchance them, or to alter them any way.

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
And, by the way, don’t you sometimes think that whenever smth. becomes KNOWN it stops being INTERESTING? How would we feel about Tolkien fantasy world IF there was NO fantasy in it and IF everything was plainly explained?!

Well I love science..more than fantasy in fact..so who can be sure?