Durin's Bane or Whistling Past the Graveyard

There is so much false information here, I don't know where to start.....

Let's see:

1. The Hobbit plainly states that 'There was, of course, no longer any question of dividing the hoarde in such shares as had been planned, to Balin and Dwalin.... Yet a fourteenth share was given up to Bard..."
So, Balin et all were not 'fabuously rich' after Smaug's death, no more than all the other Dwarves.

2. 'Dain did not give Balin leave to go willingly'.

3. Celebrimbor was killed & Eregion destroyed over 3000 years (2nd Age 1700) before the Balrog was released (3rd Age 1980). Nowhere is it stated that the Balrog EVER left Moria.

4. Gimli doesn't 'recognize a Balrog', he says "Durin's Bane". How hard is it to figure out this terrifying monster of fear is Durin's Bane? Even the Orcs were afraid of it.....

5.>>>The dwarfs of Moria were burnt not drowned.

Were'd you come up with that, Harad?
In fact, the one time I recall a 'death by Balrog', it says in The Silmarillion that 'Gothmog hewed him with his black axe,.... & they beat him (Fingon) into the dust with their maces...'

6. Gandalf talks about the Balrog, but he won't mention the things in the deep that he saw when they fell to the bottom of the mountain?
That would imply there was some serious creatures down there. Thanks for bringing that out, Harad; it only proves my point....

7. As for the Balrog being 'known' but thought 'dormant, hogwash.
Dain's statement at the Battle before the Gates of Moria proves SOMETHING was known to be there moving about.


BTW, The feud between the Dwarves & these Elves goes back to the First Age between Thingol (kinsman of Celeborn) & the Dwarves of Nogrod over the ownership of the Nauglimir remade with The Silmaril in it.

So, in conclusion, there isn't one shred of evidence to suppose even ONE eyewitness had seen a Balrog & lived to describe it prior to The Fellowship entering Moria.
Dain's the only one for whom a case could even be made that he saw the Balrog.

And besides, why would anyone suspect a Balrog when they were all thought destroyed at the end of the 1st Age?

You know, maybe if there were even burned victims, they would've thought it was a young dragon or Cold Drake.

Hogwash...hmmmm...yes that's right.

Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.

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And in Utumno he gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named in Middle-earth in later days.

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Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their Lord; and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.

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Morgoth turned to bay, and there issued from Angband Balrogs to aid them. There upon the confines of Dor Daedeloth, the land of Morgoth, Fëanor was surrounded, with few friends about him. Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds;

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That was a grim meeting. At last Fingon stood alone with his guard dead about him; and he fought with Gothmog, until another Balrog came behind and cast a thong of fire about him. Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe, and a white flame sprang up from the helm of Fingon as it was cloven. Thus fell the High King of the Noldor; and they beat him into the dust with their maces, and his banner, blue and silver, they trod into the mire of his blood.

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All from the Sil...Enough evidence that Balrogs are associated with fire and their victims as well?

More hogwash as the points contradict each about whether they should know there is a Balrog or not:

How hard is it to figure out this terrifying monster of fear is Durin's Bane?

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its easy, yet

And besides, why would anyone suspect a Balrog

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its hard.

So, in conclusion, there isn't one shred of evidence to suppose even ONE eyewitness had seen a
Balrog & lived to describe it prior to The Fellowship entering Moria. Dain's the only one for whom a case could even be made that he saw the Balrog.

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The best, of course, is a self-contradictory paragraph. No question: hogwash.

How likely was a Balrog

I think I'm with Bucky in that a Balrog was very unlikely to be sitting at the roots of the mountain. In Morgoth's Ring Tolkien says that there were probably only 3-7 Balrogs at any one time. He might have changed this figure later, but unless there were many more it would be very unlikely that any Balrogs had survived into the 3rd age. In that light, it probably was surprising that there was a Balrog in Moria. I can't concieve of how it would have got there, considering Khazad-dum was already an Age old by the fall of Thangorodrim, but that's probably a topic for another thread. The point is that Gandalf was surprised to find out that Durin's Bane was a Balrog, so it is probable that no matter what Dain told the wise they did not think that it was a Balrog. After all, it was so unlikely to be a Balrog that nobody would believe it, and Dain being a third age Dwarf probably did not recognize it for what it was?

And just what had depopulated the fabled Khazad-Dum of Dwarfs, a legendarily hardy race, not known to back down from anything? A surprisingly nasty band of Orcs? A Gang of Hell's Cave Trolls? For more than 200 years they hadnt even tried to return. Balin in his foolhardiness did and survived for 5 years. The last 25 years not a word was heard from him. Its another well-attended meeting of the "check your brain at the door of Moria" club.

Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria.'

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Since it was only Dain Ironfoot, why pay any attention?

To account for this set of facts there are two possibilities.

(1) Dain didn't see the Balrog, but felt/sensed a presence
(2) Dain saw the Balrog, did not recognise it as a Balrog, and told noone enough that they could guess

Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria.'

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The 'looked' suggests that he did in fact see something. That's not certain, but lets set it aside as low probability.

Firstly, lets be aware that the dwarves had relatively little exposure to Balrogs. The Noldor had been smacked around all over the place by them, but dwarves didn't go up against them until the TA - thousands of years later. There's no reason to suppose the dwarves would really know of the first age tales of Balrogs, less so that they would associate their woes with them. The dwarves have their own term 'Durin's Bane', for what they would consider to be a one-off evil.

On the other hand Legolas recognises the Balrog straightaway. Legolas is not an especially learned elf so its reasonable to assume that any detailed description from Dain to even Thranduil will suffice to break the news.

But I doubt whether the Dain would tell him (or even Brand) about it. The dwarves are very secretive. This is a key part of their nature and it is not just a case of protecting wealth. They teach noone their language either. I think he thought this is a dwarf issue, noone but a dwarf needs to know.

But why he didn't tell Balin, and prevent him from going to his death? This was a moment to speak plainly! Even if the term 'Balrog' means little to dwarves as I've suggested, the term 'Durin's Bane' should. This is widely known by all dwarves: Balin clearly ignores this. I think it needs a description to reinforce the danger, if Dain has one to offer. I therefore conclude that Dain actually saw very little - because what he could tell Balin was insufficient to put him off. In which case, it explains why Gandalf and the rest of the Wise knew equally little.

Really.
How would a Dwarf know it was a Balrog?
Look it up in The Silmarillion?

Thandruil (& possibly Legolas) was of the Sindar & in Beleriand in the 1st age, no?
He could've seen or had ample description of a Balrog to give to Legolas.
And, King's sons tend to be more schooled & learned than the average population.....

Harad:
Of course Balrogs used Fire, duh.
I just don't see anywhere that it ever says their victims were burned. Especially ALWAYS as you implied in your 'victims are burned' statement.
(Do I really want to print this part? LOL!)

Finally, that's a great point on Gandalf's reaction:
"A Balrog" muttered Gandalf. "Now I understand". He faltered & leaned heavily on his staff. "What an evil fortune. And I am already weary."

Sounds like surprise, not " A Balrog. DAMN! Glorfindel wins the Durin's Bane Pool".....

So Gandalf, wisest of the Maia, couldn't figure out that Durin's Bane = Balrog, huh? To echo Harad's point, what else could it have been? One of the "nameless things"? Its' description would peg it, wouldn't it?

As for the Dwarves being secretive about Durin's Bane, when in all of Tolkien's works didn't the Dwarves tell everyone within shouting distance of every real and imagined hurt ever done to them?

Bucky says
I just see anywhere that it EVER says their victims were burned.

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Then I guess you just didnt read the quotes from the Silmarillion such as "wreathed in fire" and "fire sprung from his helm." Must be those new asbestos Elves they developed.

Once again: he was surprised it was a Balrog or he wasnt surprised it was a Balrog? Dwarfs wouldnt know a Balrog? Glorfindel would? Gandalf would or wouldnt? I wonder if the Balrog's mother would recognize him? Dain saw, Dain didnt see? Dain talks, Dain doesnt talk?

Dain Ironfoot kept secret why and how the entire Dwarf City of Moria was depopulated and never re-taken. And none of the "Wise" thought it was worth understanding.

Gandalf went (snuck) through Moria at least 30 years earlier. Is that supposed to be endorsement that it was a Balrog-free zone? Especially after Balin's sudden & 25 year silence? Gandalf also went through the Dol Guldur. Did that make it a picnic ground?

You guys really need to study up.....

Gandalf at the door to the Chamber of Mazarbul:

He tries to put a spell on the door.
Then, he comes flying down the steps.

Gimli: "What happened? Did you meet the beater of the drums?" (Note: Gimli doesn''t say "Did you meet Durin's Bane?")
Gandalf; "I don't know"...."All I caught was 'gnash', that is fire. Then SOMETHING came into the chamber- I felt it through the door..... It laid hold of the iron ring, and then percieved me and my spell."
What it was, I CANNOT GUESS. but I have never met such a challange..... The door burst into pieces. Something dark as a cloud was blocking all the light inside (maybe that's what Dain saw; remember the 'beyond the shadow' comment Dain made?).

End of discussion (except for Harad I'm sure, LOL!).
Even AFTER all this, Gandalf STILL doesn't know it's a Balrog until he SEES it later.

No, Bucky... I think Harad's beginning to get a case here.

If you keep up with the other threads, then you know that Gandalf is not the benevolent do-gooder we all think we know and love.

This is really all part of his cold-blooded Machiavellian Realpolitik scheming: He's feigning ignorance in order to manipulate his gullible pawns!!

This is the only logical explanation.

You really need to make some sense. Posting that quote proves what? That Gandalf didnt know, should have known, is whistling in the dark. Studying is one thing: digesting and making sense of the information is apparently something else.

ROTFLMAO

Harad, Good point on the 'Fire sprung from his helm'.
Actually, it says 'white flame sprung up from the helm of Fingon as it was cloved.'

So, white flame is a 'weapon' of Balrogs?
Tolkien constantly uses 'white' to describe good, and 'black' to describe evil in his writings (not always, but most times).
So, is the white flame attributable (is that a word?) to Fingon's helm being cloven, Gothmog's axe or physical being, or a combination of both?

I'll grant you it is a possibility.

BTW, what's with the Dain arguement?
It plainly states that 'Dain did not give him leave willingly' in reference to Balin going to Moria.

Now, as to not hearing anything & 'looking into it', isn't that what Gloin is in part doing in Rivendell at the CoE?
That 25 year lapse is on The Dwarves, not The Wise.....

fyi a white flame springs from the helmet of the Orc Chieftan when Anduril comes down on his head in the Chamber 'O Marz.

Harad, you are too much.

Here I am, your staunchest (and only) supporter (usually) & you're spinning out of control on me....

Why is it that every time a discussion starts, everyone can usually see the proof presented is clear but you?
Do we have a problem, like Fonzi, saying "I'm wrong"?

As my father used to tell me "You're right & the world's wrong."


BTW, I won't get in a 'Flame' War with you as others have.

Pun intended......

WTF? You're all gibbering, but I haven't got clue what you're trying to say. Someone please recap, preferably without too rolling around otflyao please. There's so much sarcasm in this thread I can't make out what you actually mean, and what's completely hilarious.

Bucky, youre too little:
The rare instances that you agree with me show that you are not irredeemably lost.

I really cant explicate your back and forth posts on this thread. Your "proof"? Of what? It is to laugh, harshly.

Better for you not to enjoin (somebody?) to "study" more and call their posts "hogwash." Better for you to get your own Buckland in order.

The "poor little unassuming me pose" is hilarious considering your words quoted in the preceding sentence.

Originally posted by Donnie B.
Folks, let's not forget one little thing:



These two lines, taken together, are totally unambiguous. Gandalf did not know there was a Balrog in Moria, even after the first time he challenged it. Only when he saw it in the Second Hall did he realize what it was.

Now, really, all we have to determine is why no one put two and two together to come up with Durin's Bane = Balrog.

I think we've seen some good suggestions already. Here are a couple other possibilities:

1. Wishful thinking. Balrogs are nasty enough that nobody would really want to consider the possibility. Kind of the way nobody gave much thought to people flying hijacked airliners into buildings until it actually happened and could no longer be denied.

2. Active magic. Balrogs are said to wrap themselves in shadow. Perhaps Moria's Balrog was able to project a kind of "stupidity field" around itself, so that any survivors who'd seen it would be unable to recall clearly what they had seen, or perhaps would be unwilling to discuss it.

3. Gandalf was a thick-witted old fool, and already more than half senile.

I doubt that many here would go for option 3...

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I think Donnie has a point here.

Also add to the wishful thinking & shadow wrappings:
a) Lack of Survivors or eye witnesses...
b) Lack of Autopsy...
c) Lack of Gossip Columnists...
d) General lack of desire of ME people to speak of traumatic experiences...
e) Too many known and active enemies to bother with "Loch Ness Monster" types...
f) No "Jane's Guide" to ME Monster sillouettes...

Could someone summarize the evidence for anyone being able to ID the balrog before Gandalf figures it out?

My Summary would be:

1. The whole history of Dwarfs in Moria. What could have depopulated the Dwarf city and kept it that way? This is circumstantial.

2. Many including Gandalf and Aragorn had been to Moria so there must have been physical evidence. Even the asbestos Dwarfs would have been singed by the whip of flames.

3. Dain's eyewitness report. Dain was living, and an ally of Gandalf. He was available for 200 years to be debriefed.

BUT...

1) The dwarfs could have been destroyed by just about anything...
2) Decayed dwarf carcases may not have provided any conclusive evidence...
3) Dain may not have gotten a good look... and may not have even known a Blarog by sight.


Sorry Harad... it's just not that strong of a case.

Re: BUT...

Originally posted by Goroshimura
1) The dwarfs could have been destroyed by just about anything...
2) Decayed dwarf carcases may not have provided any conclusive evidence...
3) Dain may not have gotten a good look... and may not have even known a Blarog by sight.


Sorry Harad... it's just not that strong of a case.

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Again, I don't think it would have taken much of a description for anyone of the Wise to recognize it as a Balrog. Anything else in LOTR look simliar to a Balrog? Anything else fight like it? Dain may not have known what a Balrog looked like, but his description would have set off alarms to Gandalf, Elrond, etc....