Durin's Bane or Whistling Past the Graveyard

Sorry Goro, but I think the objections are lame:

1. Tell me another instance of a Dwarf City being abandonned, or "destroyed by just about anything." Thats absurd on the face of it.

2. The effects of a Balrog in battle, by the application of common sense, are quite distinguishable from any other foe you can name. I never get the idea that no one escaped alive from Moria, and certainly Dain did.

3. As usual, this is the "Dain is an idiot...doesnt know and doesnt want to know--neither does anybody else" theory. A good one for some, but I think I will pass.

"Whistling past the graveyard" is a situation that everybody knows or should know, but no one acknowledges. That's what describes the Durin's Bane thread.

Okay... so maybe we can't get conclusive evidence either way.

If that is the case, then we have to assume that Tolkien knew what he was doing... and that there is a plausible reason for Gandalf not knowing, though JRRT may not have set anything down that would indeed shed any light on the subject.

If it's a question of where the burden of proof lies, then those that think that Tolkien was in error have quite a chore cut out for them, in my mind!

I have a possible theory. It uses the Dwarves greed as the main solution.
OK, here goes.
1. Dain sees the Balrog and recognises it from descriptions he has heard about Balrogs.
2. The heroic tales of the First Age are known to the free peoples of ME. Especially about Gondolin and the fall of both Ecthelion and Glorfindel who killed Balrogs.
3. Dain figures that seeing how a whole Dwarf city was wiped out by the Balrog, it is obvious that Dwarves are no match for a Balrog.
4. But he knows that it is possible, a powerful Elf (Glorfindel, Elrond, Thranduil, Celeborn etc.) could walk into Moria and despatch the Balrog.
5. Dain obviously wouldn't want Moria to fall into the hands of Elves.
Remember how greedy for gold and gems Thranduil is from the Hobbit?
Dain decides that if the Dwarves can't have Moria, then no-one can.
6. Dain refuses to positively identify the Balrog to anyone and lets them think that there is something far more sinister in Moria. Therefore the Elves can't get their greedy little hands on all the mithril in Moria.


OK, maybe it's a bit of a weird theory, but it would explain why Dain never told anyone enough about the Balrog for a positive ID.

I'll buy that... and I'll pick up my brain from the Watcher in the Water as I leave by the west gate!

Sorry but that's quite funny.

Anyway, someone said Dain would have a good description, and would tell all cos he was a whinging dwarf. Someone show me some evidence and I will believe in the locquacious complaining of Mr Ironfoot, otherwise I'm happy.

Mormegil's theory makes sense....EXCEPT...

Why doesnt Dain clue in Balin? And Gloin, 25 years after Balin went belly up?

Further, Dain was quite reasonable as far as Dwarfs go--compare with Thorin.

Further further you have to be consistently consistent. If the Dwarfs were that greedy and secretive, why not have Glorfindel clear out Moria (he wasnt doing anything, anyway). Then when its safe, come in and claim the "ancient Dwarf Kingdom" and give Glorfindel an exterminating fee.

OK, if you want a more detailed response to Mormegil's theory, it goes like this.

Originally posted by Mormegil
I have a possible theory. It uses the Dwarves greed as the main solution.
OK, here goes.
1. Dain sees the Balrog and recognises it from descriptions he has heard about Balrogs.

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Maybe he's sees it. But who has he met who has described a Balrog to him? Possible I suppose, but not certain.

Originally posted by Mormegil
2. The heroic tales of the First Age are known to the free peoples of ME. Especially about Gondolin and the fall of both Ecthelion and Glorfindel who killed Balrogs.

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Ah yes, they've all been reading the Silmarillion again. The stories from the end of the second age are shrouded myth and misinformation, those from the First Age are scarcely common currency.

Originally posted by Mormegil
3. Dain figures that seeing how a whole Dwarf city was wiped out by the Balrog, it is obvious that Dwarves are no match for a Balrog.

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I grant you that its obvious that Dwarves are no match for Durin's Bane.

Originally posted by Mormegil
4. But he knows that it is possible, a powerful Elf (Glorfindel, Elrond, Thranduil, Celeborn etc.) could walk into Moria and despatch the Balrog.

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Ah yes of course. As the powerful elves frequently went off to liberate dwarf-kingdoms... I really can't see that this is big concern. Why would the elves want Moria?

Originally posted by Mormegil
5. Dain obviously wouldn't want Moria to fall into the hands of Elves.
Remember how greedy for gold and gems Thranduil is from the Hobbit?
Dain decides that if the Dwarves can't have Moria, then no-one can.

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Thranduil's greed is not really greed at all. He is concerned for his friends in Lake Town. In any case, there is no great wealth lying around in Moria. Gloin and Gimli say as much: Balin is hoping to mine mithril. Glorfindel the miner? Somehow I doubt it?

Originally posted by Mormegil
6. Dain refuses to positively identify the Balrog to anyone and lets them think that there is something far more sinister in Moria. Therefore the Elves can't get their greedy little hands on all the mithril in Moria.

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So exactly what is more sinister than a Balrog?? If anything saying nothing about the Balrog invites people to go and pay a visit. Which is exactly what Balin does.

I contend Dain can't have known specifically what Durin's Bane was, or detail nature of the threat posed, or Balin would have stayed at home.

Why dont you just come out and say in BOLD LETTERS that you chose to ignore:

Originally posted by Dain Ironfoot
Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria.'

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I can't believe that Dain actually saw the Balrog. He is outside the gates of Moria, right? He "looks" in and sees something - something that must be pretty close to the gates. If he indeed recognizes it as a Balrog - one of the most feared evils of ME - wouldn't he lose it : "A Balrog! A Balrog! Run away! Run away!" No, he tiredly returns to the other dwarves and pretty camly announces that he has seen an evil that will keep the Dwarves out of Moria for quite some time yet.

Wasn't he worried that this evil thing might come through the gates and get them all? They spend the rest of the day cleaning up after the battle, burning bodies, etc. I, for one, would have high-tailed it out of there pronto.

Therefore, I can only conclude that Dain only got a glimpse of some vague evil and did not actually see the Balrog - or he did not recognize what he saw.

Dain doesnt recognize nor overly fear "the Evil."

Yet he concludes:

The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria.

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I feel like I have gone thru the lookingglass...Wait that's another story...

More Dain:

Yet hardy and full of wrath as he was, it is said that when he came down from the Gate he looked grey in the face, as one who has felt great fear.

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I am well aware of that quote and do not ignore it, but rather interpret it differently.

He sees something, and it is big and scary. 2+2=4. Moria + Big scary thing = Durin's Bane.

But what convinces you that he knows its a Balrog?

Yes, he was full of fear. Yes, he believes he may have seen Durin's Bane. But if he really felt he saw a Balrog standing just inside the gates, wouldn't he be a little more inclined to warn the others? To run away? To attack? Something other than his calm reaction. It just doesn't "ring true" to me that he saw and recognized a Balrog.

In fact, I find it hard to accept that he really believed that he saw Durin's Bane for the same reasons. Something scared him, he couldn't make it out, knew the legend of Durin's Bane and made some assumptions.

And yes, if he had convinced himself that it was Durin's Bane, then he would believe that it was too much for his people and that the world would have to change before they could inhabit Moria.

"a power and terror seemed to be in it and go before it". Isn't it possible that Dain only felt the terror emitted by the Balrog and assumed it was Durin's Bain without ever seeing anything?

Its like the Oliphaunt joke: Its got tusks like an O, its got a trunk like an O, its got 4 flat feet, big floppy ears, it smells like an O, and trumpets like an O--what is it? A Balrog, of course.

Dwarfs are not complete morons (are they). They never forget (like Oliphaunts). Balrogs are one of the Prime Bad Guys of that plane of Existence. To think that Dwarfs did not know Balrogs is pushing it.

Gimli stared with wide eyes. `Durin's Bane! ' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.

'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. `Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff.

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You say potato, I say Balrog. Gimli knew what it was! Gandalf knew what it was! 2+2 = 5.

In fact, I find it hard to accept that he really believed that he saw Durin's Bane for the same reasons. Something scared him, he couldn't make it out, knew the legend of Durin's Bane and made some assumptions.

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Sorry but this is self-contradictory. He didnt believe he saw it, YET, he made assumptions as if he did.

For a Dwarf to say "The World must change" (Not "The World has Changed" -Treebeard book, Blanchett movie), means to me that he had had a deeply religious experience.

Gimli's recognition of Durin's Bane does not mean that he recognized it as a Balrog.

Big Scary Monster = Durin's Bane - yes

Big Scary Monster = Balrog - maybe, to one of the wise with much more experience that Gimli, son of Gloin (e.g. Gandalf)

Remember, it has been a LONG TIME since the last ME encounter with Balrogs. Memories fade, oral histories blur. Legolas recognizes it because it is possible that he or his father actually saw one once. But a living Dwarf? I would think that either ALL the Dwarves would know that Durin's Bane was a Balrog (pretty big event in their history) or none does. And if the Dwarves knew, then Gandalf certainly would too and he clearly does not until he sees it.

Ah, but if ME is full of big scary monters then:

BSM = Durin's Bane is not a slam dunk.

To explain this "mass ignorance" one has to invoke Dain's bad eyesight or forgetfulness, Dain's secretiveness to the detriment of his own people, and the marked indifference of all the other free peoples of ME to what happened in Moria.

If thats what most of you want, who am I to disagree?

Dain's bad eysight or forgetfulness?

..."a power and terror seemed to be in it and go before it".

"What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow"...

The Balrog emits fear and terror. It wraps itself in shadow. Isn't it possible that Dain only felt the terror emitted by the Balrog standing just inside the gates and assumed it was Durin's Bain without ever seeing anything to recognize?

BTW, BSM in Moria = Durin's Bane is not too far a stretch.

I can't prove or disprove whether Dain would have known that Durin's Bane was a Balrog. My point has always been that by Dain's (or, the Dwarves that escaped the sack of Moria in TA 1980) description - you know, "24 feet tall, wreathed in smoke and shadow, wielding fire", that sort of thing - someone would have known. Gandalf, Elrond, Celeborn, Thranduil, etc....

"someone would have known. Gandalf, Elrond, Celeborn, Thranduil, etc...."

Yes, and if any of them had known, Gandalf would too. And clearly he did not until he saw it.

And clearly he did not until he saw it.

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That is not a news flash.

The question, or the "point" as many Wise posters have asked, is WHY DIDNT GANDALF KNOW?

1. He was a moron, as were all the others who should have cared enuf to debrief Dain Ironfoot, in the intervening 200 years
2. He and the others didnt want to know

I have to agree that its hard to believe, the way the book was written, that no-one ever really found out enough info or suspected:

1) DB was in Moria for a while, I think years, before the dwarves left. I can't remember the timing, it kept killing the dwarf king. Its in the RotK appendix. So you have to assume that hundreds of dwarves saw the dang thing at some point, and not one of them returned with a description like: "it had a whip", "it had a flaming mane", "terror and darkness proceeded it", "it had a flaming sword", etc. I mean those descriptions alone would give at least any elf a clue.

2) I agree that Gandalf shows complete suprise. But I don't think that means that the topic never came up (nudge nudge say no more a nod's as good as a wink to a blind bat).

3) Its fine to say Dain never saw it, didn't know what it was, didn't see enough to give a good description to someone else. But he knew it was still there, and even after killing Azog he is completely "wet my pants" over noticing it is still there in Moria. A scant 200 or so years before Gandalf goes through again.

So can we at least say, they knew something horrible was likely still there? Like something bad enough to kill and drive out hundreds or thousands of dwarves? Something that perhaps Aragorn saw too when he went through Moria?

Originally posted by Harad
Its like the Oliphaunt joke: Its got tusks like an O, its got a trunk like an O, its got 4 flat feet, big floppy ears, it smells like an O, and trumpets like an O--what is it? A Balrog, of course.

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Interesting that you should mention the old joke, because the point of that joke is, everybody perceives things differently based on their experience. The blind men all described the elephant differently: the leg-feeler thought it was like a tree, the trunk-feeler thought it was like a snake, and so on.

In the subsequent quote, you make the case perfectly. Gimli see the Balrog and says, "Durin's Bane". Note that he did not shout "A Balrog!" He perceived the critter through dwarf-blind eyes.

Gandalf sees the same thing and calls it a Balrog. Not "the Balrog", mind you, as in "the Balrog of Moria that we all knew was down here somewhere". Your quote identifies the very moment when the equation Durin's Bane = Balrog was made.

So what is your question? Why didn't the dwarves know it was a Balrog? I dunno, but apparently they didn't. Why didn't they describe it to someone who might know what it was? I dunno, but apparently they didn't. Why didn't others among the Wise who had heard the story of Durin recognize the antagonist as a Balrog? I dunno, but apparently they didn't. Any attempt to answer in more detail is likely to be mere speculation, and yours is as good as mine.

If your point is, "Well, they should have figured it out," then I agree with you. But (sigh), apparently they didn't. Or if they did, it was somebody besides Gandalf, and they didn't bother to mention it to him.