Durin's Bane or Whistling Past the Graveyard

[Goro Shimura]

You are assuming that someone that saw the Balrog escaped.

It could be that the dwarves that fled only heard a ruckus in the basement that was VERY frightening.

And one toasted dwarf crawls out of the wreckage... "Durin's dead..." he says, and then expires....

So they don't know what it was.

And no-one wants to go in and find out.

What's so illogical about that?

 

[Harad]

In every battle and in every city destroyed in all of history there have been survivors. If you want to call it "logical" that in this case there were none, who am I to stop you?

The Wise and the Eldar, busybodies extraordinaire, don't want to find out why a Dwarf City was detroyed. Again your "logic" is your own.

 

[Goro Shimura]

Wait a minute Harad...

I find it hard to believe that there has never been a battle in which there were no survivors on one side.

 

[Harad]

Try harder. Or give me a counter-example.

A skirmish can result in a small force being wiped out--e.g. Custer's last stand, in which a couple hundred cavalry were killed. But even in that case, other elements of Custer's command survived. Even the sacking of Carthage or Troy had survivors. Khazad-dum with 10000s of inhabitants was not in the "small" skirmish category. Besides, the book clearly states that the Dwarves fled. What eggzactly is unclear about that?

 

[Goro Shimura]

Originally posted by Goroshimura
You are assuming that someone that saw the Balrog escaped.

It could be that the dwarves that fled only heard a ruckus in the basement that was VERY frightening.

And one toasted dwarf crawls out of the wreckage... "Durin's dead..." he says, and then expires....

Maybe you didn't read what I wrote....

 

[Harad]

Sadly, I did.

 

[aragil]

Of course, we don't know much about Dwarven culture, and we don't really know what sort of engagement the Balrog was in. For all we know the Balrog woke up, killed the miners that had uncovered it, donned its ninja gear, and then snuck in and killed Durin. Perfect crime, no witnesses. Since the Elves in Tolkien's tales usually behaved in a rational (if not perfectly logical) manner, we need to assume that they did as much investigative work as was in their power based on the info that the Dwarves were divulging. Since the Elves didn't discover the nature of the Balrog until the Fellowship entered into Moria, we'll also have to assume that any such investigations were unsuccessful.
Harad, you seem to be assuming that the Elves didn't make any investigation, and then complaining about what a bad decision it was to not perform the investigation. We have no evidence for or against such an investigation, so why not assume that it occurred?

 

[Greenwood]

In every battle and in every city destroyed in all of history there have been survivors.

Harad

You are talking about history in our world, not Middle-earth. There is nothing comparable to the underground city of Moria in our world. There is also nothing comparable to the dwarves and their famed reluctance to share information with other races of creatures on Middle-earth. As Gandalf says, no one even knows what the dwarves own name is for mithril.

Since you like to postulate all sorts of things, how about this one: the Balrog is not Durin's Bane! No one in the Fellowship has first hand knowledge or experience of either Balrogs or Durin's Bane. Maybe they are all just making an incorrect assumption that the Balrog is Durin's Bane. Maybe Durin's Bane has gone to sleep on a bed of mithril somewhere down in the depths of Moria and the Balrog was sent to Moria recently by Sauron. Gandalf says that there are nameless things in the bowls of the earth and he will not trouble the world with reports of them. Maybe one of them is really Durin's Bane and all of this is a mistaken identification.

 

[Harad]

We are told about the investigations by the same cast of characters into Dol Guldur, but not Moria. Again, one can assume a thing is present BECAUSE it is not mentioned, or one can assume it is absent. The latter wins the Occam's Razor test.

JRRT was practicing deception if Durin's Bane was not a balrog. If you want to pursue this theory Greenwood, I suggest a separate thread.

To fall back on the lame excuse that all logic goes out the window because the city is under a mountain, is a cop out, shirley.

The Dwarves stayed in Moria for ~year between when Durin VI and Nain I were slain (of course JRRT could have meant Dec 31 1980 and Jan 1 1981 for the times to separate the events--this is more fodder for Greenwoods "JRRT practiced deception thread.") During that year, you fine fellows believe that not one Dwarf saw anything and not one Dwarf left Moria with the knowledge of what he had seen. The balrog would have to be a ninja indeed to hide his demonic body of flame and signature whip, and assasinate Durin VI and one year later, Nain I, without any other Dwarf being the wiser. I'm pretty gullible. Why not?

 

[Bucky]

"It would have been easier for Barliman Butterbur to have led the Hobbits safely to Rivendell by himself than to convince one from Harad to change their mind, even based on logical facts."

-JRR Toklien, Letter #669
From The Letters of JRR Toklien Vol II


I think I shouldn't bother, but......

If the Dwarves were mining for Mithril, the #1 'quarried' substance in ME, isn't it a likely posibility that:

A. Durin VI was down there checking things out/supervising at the time The Balrog was released.

B. He went down to see why the daily lode of Mithril hadn't been brought up.

Then, he's like a bug in a bug zapper.
I doubt that the Balrog would have had to go out of the immediate area to kill a # of 'greedy' Dwarves who were quite concerned about their Mithril supply.
Look how Thorin acted in Erebor after Smaug was killed.
And since the Balrog took off in The War of Wrath, hid in the mountains for 5400 years, and NEVER left Moria after being released, I think we can assume that DB was the ME equivelant of Greta Garbo ("I vant to be alone)......

Again, there's no evidence that anyone ever lived who had a good look at Durin's Bane.

AND, how about THIS one:
Gandalf had previously been in Moria.
How do you know that his purpose wasn't to see what took down Khazad-Dum?
What is the Tale of Years going to say?

2690 3rd Age: Gandalf enters Moria to look for Durin's Bane & finds nothing?


>>>So just as they kept track of Dol Guldur (not too well admittedly) they do
some investigative work with regards to Moria.

Big difference.
Dol Gulder was known to be a stronghold built SPECIFICALLY by a powerful but unknown enemy to the 'West' or 'The Wise'.
No new kingdom was set up in Moria; it was just desolate after some unknown subteranean monster was released.
I know, years later, Orcs populated Moria, but they were hardly operating as a functionally offensive force, but were there to cover any passage between East & West of the Mountains.

Even the fact that DB was released from underground, when coupled with Gandalf's comment about unknown things in the deeps of the earth would certainly lead any rational person (yeah, I know what most of you will say to that. LOL!) to conclude that some unknown monster was released.


BTW, If anybody was the dummy here, it was Sauron.
HIS Orcs were in Moria. Didn't one of them ever see DB & report back? Remember, the Orcs were scared of DB, but they weren't all fried in a minute when he showed up in FOTR.
And, who's name was branded on Thror's head, saying HE was now Lord of Moria?
Durin's Bane? 'Not known to be living Balrog'?
No, AZOG.

These facts would indicate that they saw little of DB and they were 'OK' with DB; after all, he'd seen his share of Orcs in Angband I'm sure....

 

[Eonwe]

Interesting point regarding Sauron. I mean c'mon there is NO excuse for him not to know.

Perhaps this gives weight to the theory that he didn't have any power to persuade the balrog to fight on his side... Sort of a loner Maia it was?

 

[Harad]

Just a general point.
I am supposed to change my mind? Even tho I am right. What about the semi-infinite number of you stubbornly adhering like limpits to the side of your canoe as it goes over the falls? Do you expect approbation for that?

1000 years of ignorance and apathy don't bother you? The Dark Ages sounds like a romp in the park. Go for it.

You talk about the instance that Durin VI was killed and you ignore the YEAR between the death's of Durin VI and Nain I. During this time the Dwarf City went from thriving to ZERO. Think of all the reasons why the Balrog wasnt noticed and reported during this time. You also neglect the fact that Durin VI was a ruler. Was he the one in the deepest part of the mine with a pick? I don't think so. My guess, in the absence of any info, is that he was in his throne room when killed. Youre welcome to make up the most absurd scenarios, but don't expect them to be convincing.

Sauron did not know about the Balrog? Where did this brainstorm come from? The Orcs apparently worked with the Balrog, since both Azog and the Balrog were "confronted" by Dain Ironfoot.

Then in LOTR:

The ranks of the orcs had opened, and they crowded away, as if they themselves were afraid. Something was coming up behind them. What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.

This the first time the Orcs saw the balrog? What evidence? I would readily believe that the communication Sauron had with his people in Moria kept him well informed about Durin's Bane. The idea that the Fellowship was chased into Moria, unwittingly, would be in accord with this.

The further idea that Dol Guldur was a problem but Moria was not, is equally absurd. Dol Guldur was not a City either. Moria was not only the absence of a positive force--a thriving Dwarf city--but also the presence of a hostile blocking force that caused uncounted delays and attacks (e.g. Celebrian wounding could be laid there) in the East-West communication of the Alliance forces. Dol Guldur was in fact easier to attack, not more important strategically.

 

[Bucky]

Who said the Orcs NEVER had contact with DB?
Not me.
DB seems to have an 'inconsistant' pressence after being released.
If he was a consistantly present figure & had had some communication with Sauron, don't you think a mighty Balrog & not a lowly Orc would be the new 'Lord of Moria'?

And, why didn't the Balrog come forth at the Battle of Nanduhurion before the East Gate of Moria?

I mean, it's not like Illuvator's gift to the world, Glorfindel, was there. It was just a bunch of Dwarves like the ones he'd been roasting left & right in Khazad-Dum as you seem to think.

 

[Harad]

I admit I dont know the motivation of a Balrog. You seem to be a fount of wisdom on the subject. What is it?

I would guess they are not into Empire building. When was a balrog ever a Lord of a domain? More into terrorizing, mayhem, and murder. Let them lie until a choice delicacy comes into reach. Meanwhile the more organized Orcs "run" things. Maybe the balrog was like the Orcs' pitbull.

When the Enemy is outside the gates, wait patiently for them to come in. No need to venture outside, since your quarters are indoors.

 

[Bucky]

The Balrogs seem to come outdoors quite often in the 1st Age against mightier opponents than a bunch of Dwarves.......

 

[Harad]

Not THIS balrog. He didnt even rate a name.

 

[Bucky]

What Balrog besides Gothmog did have a name?

>>>I would guess they are not into Empire building. When was a balrog ever a
Lord of a domain? More into terrorizing, mayhem, and murder. Let them lie
until a choice delicacy comes into reach. Meanwhile the more organized Orcs "run" things.?

'Gothmog, High Captain of Angband'

You must be into empire building to get THAT title serving under the all-time empire building, wanna be King of all Arda, Melkor, no?

 

[Harad]

No.

Gothmog was a hired hand. Now if set up shop on WereWolf Island, and started his own crib and homeys, that would be different.

Dragons were similar. They might do some dirty deeds, but mostly they hung out in their lairs gloating, and protecting their ill-gotten gains.

DB probably considered Moria his unhappy home, and let the world go by, until someone came by selling vacuum cleaners, or handing out religious tracts.

That doesnt absolve the Elves of any culpability for not looking into the destruction of the neighboring city. But it does explain why the balrog didnt try to expand his "empire."

 

[Greenwood]

Quote by Harad
We are told about the investigations by the same cast of characters into Dol Guldur, but not Moria.

Dol Guldur is a holdover from The Hobbit. Gandalf's disappearance for a major part of The Hobbit was to help the White Council drive Sauron (then called the Necromancer) from Dol Guldur. There is no such reason for us to hear about failed investigations of Moria for the identity of Durin's Bane (by contrast the investigation of Dol Guldur was a success). That we are not told of any investigations does not prove there were none. You are also demanding that the elves and the wise investigate Durin's Bane because of things that are going to happen in the future. This is the same kind of arguing from knowledge of later events in the book that you (rightly) argue against in other threads. One, we do not know if attempts were made to investigate Durin's Bane and two, there is no reason to criticize the elves even if they didn't.

Quote by Harad
My guess, in the absence of any info, is that he was in his throne room when killed.

As you say, you have no info. Durin could also have been inspecting his treasury in a sub-basement when the Balrog got him. Nain could have been valiantly leading his household guards in an effort to retake the lower halls when slain. Moria is an underground city and the Balrogs main weapon is fear. What would be more terrible and inspire more fear than dwarves just disappearing from the lower halls and the few dwarves who return from these lower halls reporting a vast shadow and a nameless fear overpowering them. There are no detailed reports in LOTR for any of us to go on as to how the Balrog drove out the dwarves.

 

[Bucky]

Greenwood, once again, you are making too much sense.....

>>>DB probably considered Moria his unhappy home, and let the world go by,
until someone came by selling vacuum cleaners, or handing out religious
tracts.

Harad, first good line on the tracts, LOL.
Want me to send you some more?
Honestly, as a Christian, I'm not a big fan of handing someone a little booklet to tell them about God's Love through Jesus.
Show 'em love & integrity, then wait for the door to their heart, not their house, to open. Otherwise, it's about as easy to convert somebody as........

To get YOU to change your mind when presented with sensable points....

Now back to our regularly scheduled endless debate:

>>>Let them lie
until a choice delicacy comes into reach.

This comment seems to be in direct contrast to your earlier theories that DB had gone about all of Moria wrecking havoc.


>>>Gothmog was a hired hand. Now if set up shop on WereWolf Island, and
started his own crib and homeys, that would be different.

I don't think so. From The Silmarillion, chapter 3:

And in Utomno he (Melkor) gathered his demons about him, those spirits who FIRST adherred to him in the days of his splendor, and BECAME MOST LIKE HIM in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were clothed in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named in ME in later days.

That doesn't sound like a hired hand, now does it?
If Gothmog's a hired hand, so is Sauron.

Sauron was simply obeying orders when sent to Tol Sirion.
Same with Glaurung in Nargothrond.
And Gothmog was too by staying in Angband, where the impression I get from the title 'High Captain' is that he was the leader of Morgoth's army.