Evil women in The Lord of the Rings

[Rivendell_librarian]

There are very few if any evil women in The Lord of the Rings. Queen Berúthiel is briefly mentioned in the appendices I believe, but she's not a major character (is she really evil?). All the wizards are in the form of men I believe, but wizardess is a word that has been coined elsewhere, and there are the more obvious words like witch or sorceress. So is there any reason why Saruman, for instance, couldn't have been a woman? What would be a good name for a female Saruman? Not Saruwoman of course!

Now before you all get your flame throwers out Smaug style, I'm not suggesting that Tolkien should have included a major female evil human (or of human form) character but just wondering how such a character would have affected the story if it's considered possible or reasonably feasible?

 

[Frandîr]

I believe Ungoliant could be read as a female character. I have not read all the history of middle earth (I'm halfway through) but using Blind Guardian's prologue to their Tolkien themed album "Nightfall in Middle Earth", "War of Wrath", I believe she is called: "...the mistress of her own lust."

 

[Halasían]

There are very few if any evil women in The Lord of the Rings.

Tolkien had very few women mentioned at all. Take Helm Hammerhand's daughter for instance. Mentioned as a marriage plot device, but not named. Also, all the lineage from Elendil to Aragorn II, only a few of the wives/mothers even mentioned as existing, let alone named.

As for your mention of 'evil' women characters, I agree with Frandir... He writes about one. Ungoliant is a serious major bad female character. I suppose Shelob could be considered female just by going by the name.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

The story uses feminine pronouns for Shelob repeatedly, so definitely yes. Like the Duessa in Spenser, she's the female counterpart to the Sorcerer. The pair are like the black king and queen in Chess, opposed by the "white" pair, Gandalf and Galadriel.

 

[Fingon_Findekáno]

Thuringwethil is another bad female character who serves Morgoth and Sauron, mentioned in the tale of Beren and Lúthien. Her name translates to "Mistress of Shadow", and she's known to have the form of a large bat/vampire. How genuinely evil she is often seems to depend on the version people see of her. Among fanfics I've read, her importance ranges from simply being a messenger to being a genuine threat, like a femme fatale. Many versions will also focus on her "vampireness". I personally like seeing her in this darker light, dangerous to Elves. Puts her on a similar level with the likes of Morgoth and Sauron in terms of generating fear in others.

 

[Rivendell_librarian]

But I don't consider Shelob to be human or of human form and I'm focussing on The Lord of the Rings not The Silmarillion.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

You should see some of the YouTube videos.😄
But she's the closest we have to an "evil woman" in LOTR, unless you want include Lobelia.

By the way, it's not in the Appendices where Beruthiel is mentioned, but "A Journey in the Dark", by Aragorn about Gandalf:

'He is surer of finding the way home in a blind night than the cats of Queen Beruthiel.'

There, of course, we have no indication of moral attitude. That would come in Unfinished Tales.

 

[Rivendell_librarian]

I think of Lobelia as very annoying not evil

 

[Greenleaf2024]

The story uses feminine pronouns for Shelob repeatedly, so definitely yes. Like the Duessa in Spenser, she's the female counterpart to the Sorcerer. The pair are like the black king and queen in Chess, opposed by the "white" pair, Gandalf and Galadriel.

What was it the orcs in ROTK said after Sam stabbed Shelob? Something like, "someone stuck a pin into her ladyship"?🤣

 

[Ent]

Do we have any instances where "Saruman" is referred to, by anyone, as Tolkien wrote the canon, as "he" ?
If so, case closed. Saruman is a "he." (when Ent is home, he'll check the details.)

Is there any reason Tolkien could not have written Saruman to be a 'she' ? Of course not.

However, Ent's mind plays with the issue we do have references to Saruman as a 'he' - perhaps even by Treebeard, when he speaks of how Saruman always asked questions, but in retrospect, never really seemed to share much about 'himself,' for example. Just not in a position to confirm that kind of thing at the moment.

Or Pippin (Merry?) saying "he seems different somehow."

So there's possibly a difference between the 'literal canonical' and the 'possibile.' The phrasing of the question is a little unclear.

 

[Greenleaf2024]

I think Treebeard said something about "he (Saruman) used to walk in my forest". Maybe that was in the movies, not sure.

 

[Ent]

So is there any reason why Saruman, for instance, couldn't have been a woman? What would be a good name for a female Saruman?

Re-addressing:

1. Literally, canonically: No. ces to Saruman as "he" canonically:
Treebeard of Saruman: ""He was polite in those days, always asking my leave ... and always eager to listen. I told him many things that he would never have found out by himself; but he never repaid me in like kind. I cannot remember that he ever told me anything...
- Others:
- Tolkien describes the Istari as "old men" in their embodied forms.
- Gandalf consistently refers to Saruman as "he".
- Elrond refers to him as "he" at the Council.
- Théoden, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Merry, Pippin, and others all speak of Saruman as "he."
So 'literally, canonically,' we cannot contrive Saruman to be 'female.'

2. However, Hypothetically: "could he" have been written as a female instead? Of course.
- Difficulties would include overcoming the 'mindset of the times Tolkien wrote in' regarding male/female roles of his time. And certainly, 'reconciliation issues' given Tolkien's intentional writing to be 'consonant with Christian theology' - which at that time and given his particular Christian leaning, saw 'leadership roles' predominantly belonging with men - (with some few exceptions.) A female as 'head of the White Council?' ouch.

3. The difficulty is "what would the impact have been?"
- This is entirely speculative. How would 'she' have lead the Council? How would they have reacted to her leadership? How would the Orcs have reacted to her? How would Sauron have perceived her and her capabilities/usefulness?

4. What would a good name be for a female Saruman? Ent is not good with names.
One suggestion: Sarueena. Palatable, soft, appropriate for a female functioning in a traditionally male dominated leadership role - both as head of the Council, slave driver behind the scenes, and ultimately head of a rather massive corporate organization devoted to biological testing, construction and explosives, and ultimately world conquest.

"Off to The Great Halls of Speculation" with you, oh question of perversity and impropriety..!

 

[Eljorahir]

Rewriting Grima as a female might open up some interesting possibilities. Imagine Saruman sweet-talking Eowyn’s cousin, the noble shield-maiden Grimsa, into his service. Saruman’s demise in the end would have an added element: Angband hath no fury like a woman scorned.

 

[Berzelmayr]

The story uses feminine pronouns for Shelob repeatedly, so definitely yes. Like the Duessa in Spenser, she's the female counterpart to the Sorcerer. The pair are like the black king and queen in Chess, opposed by the "white" pair, Gandalf and Galadriel.

Shelob - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Radaghast]

Both Ungoliant and Shelob are unequivocally female, though I would hesitate to call them women.

 

[Radaghast]

What was it the orcs in ROTK said after Sam stabbed Shelob? Something like, "someone stuck a pin into her ladyship"?🤣

Exact quote:

‘Who cut the cords she’d put round him, Shagrat? Same one as cut the web. Didn’t you see that? And who stuck a pin into Her Ladyship? Same one, I reckon. And where is he? Where is he, Shagrat?’

Also enjoy this one:

'No need to worry about Shelob for a bit, I reckon. She’s sat on a nail, it seems, and we shan’t cry about that.'

 

[Vorondil]

Re-addressing:

1. Literally, canonically: No. ces to Saruman as "he" canonically:
Treebeard of Saruman: ""He was polite in those days, always asking my leave ... and always eager to listen. I told him many things that he would never have found out by himself; but he never repaid me in like kind. I cannot remember that he ever told me anything...
- Others:
- Tolkien describes the Istari as "old men" in their embodied forms.
- Gandalf consistently refers to Saruman as "he".
- Elrond refers to him as "he" at the Council.
- Théoden, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Merry, Pippin, and others all speak of Saruman as "he."
So 'literally, canonically,' we cannot contrive Saruman to be 'female.'

Doesn't it also say that Gandalf (after his return) looked almost the same as Saruman?

 

[Radaghast]

Posting this here because why the heck not?

 

[Ent]

Doesn't it also say that Gandalf (after his return) looked almost the same as Saruman?

Ent will need to check that specific reference.
Certainly there were 'aspects' (like his being able to display himself as 'white' when he threw his cloak back) -

It is also strongly implied by the many passages making reference to it, people really couldn't tell any difference between Gandalf the Gray, and Gandalf the White, unless or until he threw his cloak back and 'displayed/revealed himself' as "the white." Theoden, Denethor, the Company, even Saruman didn't see a difference in him, until he 'revealed himself' to to them.

But yes, as an added piece to the "he" part, that would be a noteworthy spot if the possessive adjective or possessive pronoun "his" is in fact used.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

'Yes, I am white now,' said Gandalf. Indeed I am Saruman, one might almost say, Saruman as he should have been.'

"The White Rider"