Fates of the various races

[Sulimo]

One thing that I used to get very worked up about was the fates of men vs elves. It also made me very interested in the complexity of the fate of dwarves. However, recently I have been wondering about other fates. Below are a few races that I have no clue what their fates are. I find this to be exceptionally interesting because as far as I know there is no concept of Hell (outside of the void) in Tolkien's work.

Hobbits
Ents
Maiar (that died in the various wars)
Balrogs (I assume the void)
Orcs, dragons, vampires, and werewolves. (would Illuvatar show mercy to these beings that were distorted through the cruel machinations of Melkor)

If anyone is aware of any of these fates I would like to know.

 

[Peeping-Tom]

Hi there, Sulimo. I will try to give an answer (or answers)... but they can only be mostly guesswork and assumptions.

About fates in general, for humans, elves and dwarves, one should read the Silmarillion...

Hobbits : They are simply another form of humans and share their fate. (clearly stated by JRRT)

Ents : They are basically spirits(ainur) in "treeish"-disguise. They can become as real trees or their "shell/body" can be destroyed. Spirits released from their bodies, will probably return to the Halls of Eru. (The last is own, not documented, guess)

Maiar (that died in the various wars): Only known Maias to be killed in action is Gandalf, Saruman and maybe Sauron (besides all the Balrogs and maybe Dragons). Gandalf's spirit was inserted into a resurrected body and returned to M-E. Saruman's spirit would probably have been thrown out in the outer void. Sauron's spirit...??? He had apparently become so powerful, that his spirit was independant and did not share fate with the other evil Maias. His spirit loosened from his body at the drowning of Númenor and flew to M-E, where it slowly grew another body around itself. Though almost powerless after the destruction of the One Ring, who knows what his spirit is capable of and where it went?

Balrogs (I assume the void) : Spirits of Balrogs are, fallen/misguided/decieved by Melkor, Maias/Ainurs. Whether Eru chooses to invite them home or sends them to the outer void, only he knows... (but as you assume, probably the void)

Orcs : Thats a tricky one... Some Orcs have elven-spirits, some have Human-spirits and some are maybe whitout spirits. Are they just innocent victims of Morgoth/Sauron/Saruman's evil scheme? Fates unknown...

Dragons : Creations of Morgoth. They are independant creatures and thus must contain spirits created by Eru. Same fate as Balrogs.

Vampires, and Werewolves. (would Illuvatar show mercy to these beings that were distorted through the cruel machinations of Melkor) : If they are of Human/Elven origin they share their fates. If they are Morgoth's creations with Ainur-spirits they share the Balrogs and Dragons fate.


Just a thought : Is it not a dangerous thing... to cast all the evil spirits into the outer void? Think about it... Morgoth, evt. Sauron, Saruman, all the Balrogs, Dragons... every evil spirit ever conceived... The prophecy of Morgoth's return may just come true... along with a great grand and evil army...:*p Be scared... be really scared...

 

[Prince of Cats]

Hmm, I had imagined the fate of Ents would be similar to that of dwarves based on their creation story; I believed Ents were to Yavanna as Dwarves were to Aule?

 

[Sulimo]

Peeping-Tom I appreciate the feedback. I do however, have a couple questions.

Where in Tolkien's works does it clearly state that Hobbits share the same fate as man?
Also your answer to the Ent question seemed as if you were half quoting something. What is that from, or did you make it up?

I am also sceptical that no Maiar fell during the battles before the elves awoke. Even though no one in particular is specified as dying. However, it may be possible to make an argument for your stance by using the the recurring Tolkien theme: when something becomes evil, its integral power diminishes, for the death of so many Balrogs.

I loved your explanation even if its primarily conjecture for the "evil" characters amassing in the void. I am also curious about weather or not "evil" men go to the void when they die. Is it like a reverse Valhalla for evil.

This discussion has got the wheels in my head turning, and I am curious about why if the Ents are spirits/ainur do they live forever, but the spirit/ainur eagles such as Throndor die? Also did Tolkien make a clear designation on whether they were a nature spirt or an ainur?

Ohh and I have one more question: Why do you believe that the Ents fates are tied to the Maiar, but the creations of Aule and Melkor are subject to completely separate fates? Sorry for the bombardment of questions, your response opened several doors in my head, and got me thinking.

 

[Peeping-Tom]

Edit : Replies are found in the next post...

But one thing I can say, is that Tolkien did not write much, if anything, about the fates of others than Human and Dwarves. It is, as stated before, mostly assumings and guesses.

 

[Peeping-Tom]

First a reply for the Prince (and Sulimo) : The Dwarves were made be Aulë, but given souls/Fëa's be Eru Illúvatar, and thus becomming his "third children" (quote #1). The Ents were NOT made by Yavanna, but "Spirits from afar" who came into Arda and clad themselves in treeish shells/skin and "worked" as tree-shepards. (quote #2)
But Yavanna had thought of them and incorperated them into her song, at the beginning, thus they ARE in theory her creations... but she didn't make them, they made themselves and thus, can only be counted as either loose/free spirits (quote #3) or Ainur.

The fates of the Ainur, we know... after the end of the world, they shall return to Eru and, along with the spirits of men, commense the Second Song of the Ainur for the creation of a new world. (quote #4)

Where the free spirits come from and their fates, we don't know. (stray Ainur?)

Sulimo, here's for you :

Hobbits : Yes indeed, they were of the human race! ...and thus share their fate. (quote #5)
The Ents : see my reply to the Prince.

Slain Maiar : Well, what can I say? When Tolkien didn't write about dead Maiar, all we can do, is assume and guess... Your guess is just as good as mine! There was an unnumbered amount of Maiar to help the Valar and only a few is named and mentioned in the stories. The only known Maias to have "died" is Gandalf,Saruman,Sauron and an unnumbered amount of Balrogs. Other beings might have been Maiar as well, but that we don't know for sure. About fates of Valar and Maiar : see above under fates of the Ainurs...

Evil spirits : My guess is that they are held captive in the Halls of Mandos for a period, and either given mercy by Eru and send "back home" to him or thrown into the Void.

Special cases : The spirits of the Dark-Elven, those who refused the offerings of the Valar, were denied entrance into the undying lands and simply, when dying, vansihed into "shadow-like spirits" floating around within Arda until the end of times. After that... who knows? The elves... and Tolkien himself, didn't know of the Elven fates. (quote #4)

Edit : About Dark-elven: I'm trying to locate the proper Quote...

Ainur live forever... or just as long as Eru Illúvatar. They are made of his thoughts and thus are parts of him. But if they are clad in "living" skin or body, then that shell can get hurt, or grow old and die, but the Ainur inside still lives and can "dress" itself in another shell if wanted or needed. (My guess)

(Quenta Silmarillion, Of Aulë and Yavanna)
For they say that Aulë the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Ilúvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aulë and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle.

(Quenta Silmarillion, Of Aulë and Yavanna)
Manwë said: O Kementári, Eru hath spoken, saying: Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared.
.....
Then Yavanna was glad, and she stood up, reaching her arms towards the heavens, and she said: High shall climb the trees of Kementári, that the Eagles of the King may house therein! But Manwë rose also, and it seemed that he stood to such a height that his voice came down to Yavanna as from the paths of the winds. Nay, he said, only the trees of Aulë will be tall enough. In the mountains the Eagles shall house, and hear the voices of those who call upon us. But in the forests shall walk the Shepherds of the Trees.

(Book of Lost Tales #1, The Chaining of Melkor)
At that time did many strange spirits fare into the world, for there were pleasant places dark and quiet for them to dwell in..., ...Still is the world full of these in the days of light, lingering alone in shadowy hearts of primeval forests, calling secret things across a starry waste, and haunting caverns in the hills that few have found: -- but the pinewoods are yet too full of these old unelfin and inhuman spirits for the quietude of Eldar or of Men.

(Quenta Silmarillion, Of the Beginning of Days)Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end...

(The Tolkien Letters,From a footnote to letter #131)
The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically human race (not Elves or Dwarves) – hence the two kinds can dwell together (as at Bree), and are called just the Big Folk and Little Folk. They are entirely without non-human powers, but are represented as being more in touch with 'nature' (the soil and other living things, plants and animals), and abnormally, for humans, free from ambition or greed of wealth. They are made small (little more than half human stature, but dwindling as the years pass) partly to exhibit the pettiness of man, plain unimaginative parochial man – though not with either the smallness or the savageness of Swift, and mostly to show up, in creatures of very small physical power, the amazing and unexpected heroism of ordinary men 'at a pinch'.

I hope this helps... otherwise, just ask...:*up

 

[Sulimo]

Peeping-Tom I gotta say I'm impressed. I own the Tolkien Letters, but haven't read them. The more time I spend on this site, the more it makes me feel I need to read them. You sold me on every one of your arguments except the dark elves, but as you stated you are still searching for the proper quote.

The only thing I am curious about is the fate of "evil" men, and the void. Is the void hell? From everything I can tell it is just a timeless existence frequented by the Sun at the end of the day.

Once more, I appreciate your response. You answered more questions then I asked without trying to, and also gave me more questions. I may try and start a different thread on the "Timeless Void", but I need to think about it more. Thanks!