For a final informative view for Khamul

norrinradd · Jul 4, 2020

Elthir said:
More Khamul! And yes, I invite anyone to read Christopher Tolkien's full reasoning for publishing Unfinished Tales.

Also, it's due to CJRT's diligence in Unfinished Tales -- with respect to dating or chronology -- that I know there's a "rejected" passage here.

And that's important

I have read the full part of the Introduction of UT. You can speak clearly

HonoredRohan · Jul 7, 2020

Elthir said:
There are 11 page references to Khamûl in this Reader's Guide -- there are more page references to The Hunt for the Ring, but I only checked the 11, assuming H&S had done my work for me, so to speak. Anyway, these texts are largely about the movements of the Black Riders, and here there are no Tolkien-written descriptions of Khamûl being from the East, nor any epithets.

In other words, it is H&S who wrote "from the East" in their guide - and in their index "Shadow of the East" [although technically, even they do not use this epithet in the guide itself] -- presumably based on Unfinished Tales, to which they refer the reader in their first reference to Khamûl.

Hi @Elthir , I did not find the term which is “from the East” referred for Khamûl in Reader’s Guide of H&S. Are you sure or can't I find it in the book? Thanks 🙏

Elthir · Jul 7, 2020

I'm sure it's on one of the pages . . . white page, black ink, if I recall correctly.

🐾

HonoredRohan · Jul 7, 2020

Elthir said:
I'm sure it's on one of the pages . . . white page, black ink, if I recall correctly.

🐾

Oh cool. Could you please tell me this page number? Or sending an image Thanks...

Elthir · Jul 7, 2020

Apologies. My H&S book isn't handy at the moment 🐾

HonoredRohan · Jul 7, 2020

Elthir said:
Apologies. My H&S book isn't handy at the moment 🐾

No problem I think they (H&S) stated “from the East” by starting from the epithet ‘Shadow of the East’. “from the East” or epithet “Shadow of the East” does not enough to say that Khamul was one of the eastern people, right?

Deleted member 12094 · Jul 7, 2020

Dear HonoredRohan: I think that some of us are feeling over-Khamûlized by now (at least I do), so have some patience even as a newcomer here.

The slim information of that particular Nazgûl (a man from the East, as well as his name) comes from the Unfinished Tales, in which he is also confirmed to be "second to the Chief", with no other details given than a side note that he would have been black and particularly adept to perceive the presence of the Ring, but also the one whose power was most confused and diminished by daylight.

You can read more in Chapter 4 of the UT but expect to discover no more about his origin. Nonetheless, UT is really a delight to read; I recommend it very much.

Halasían · Jul 7, 2020

Pleased to meet you HonoredRohan!
I know there is some conjecture and speculation in what is presented on the Encyclopedial of Arda, but the Khamûl entry is fairly detailed and has footnotes. It's worth a read.

HonoredRohan · Jul 8, 2020

Halasían said:
Pleased to meet you HonoredRohan!
I know there is some conjecture and speculation in what is presented on the Encyclopedial of Arda, but the Khamûl entry is fairly detailed and has footnotes. It's worth a read.

I looked up there yes, I found that here “The source of the title 'Shadow of the East' is not altogether clear, though the 'East' here clearly refers to Khamûl's origins among the Easterlings.”

Merroe said:
Dear HonoredRohan: I think that some of us are feeling over-Khamûlized by now (at least I do), so have some patience even as a newcomer here.

The slim information of that particular Nazgûl (a man from the East, as well as his name) comes from the Unfinished Tales, in which he is also confirmed to be "second to the Chief", with no other details given than a side note that he would have been black and particularly adept to perceive the presence of the Ring, but also the one whose power was most confused and diminished by daylight.

You can read more in Chapter 4 of the UT but expect to discover no more about his origin. Nonetheless, UT is really a delight to read; I recommend it very much.

I'm in the half of the book, but I have read the chapters about Khamûl because of this thread. Reading the book is really enjoyable as you said

Squint-eyed Southerner · Jul 8, 2020

One -- admittedly eccentric -- school of thought believes "from the East" means "The Land of the Rainbow".

HonoredRohan · Jul 8, 2020

Squint-eyed Southerner said:
One admittedly eccentric school of thought believes "from the East" means "The Land of the Rainbow".

View attachment 7563

Hahahaha 🤣

Elthir · Jul 8, 2020

HonoredRohan said:
Could you please tell me this page number?

Page 84. And I hope you appreciate this . . looking up this Khamul reference made me miss my
flight to France.

Anyway. I have another daughter -- and maybe I can attend her wedding someday!

⏳

HonoredRohan · Jul 8, 2020

Elthir said:
Page 84. And I hope you appreciate this . . looking up this Khamul reference made me miss my
flight to France.

Anyway. I have another daughter -- and maybe I can attend her wedding someday!

⏳

This is my fault, I'm sorry. Thank you so much...

Elthir · Jul 8, 2020

HonoredRohan said:
This is my fault, I'm sorry. Thank you so much...

No it's my fault.

But I was correct: white page, black words!

HonoredRohan · Jul 8, 2020

Elthir said:
white page, black words!

What does it mean 😁 And could you please take a photo of this page? If not, it’s okay 👍I do not have this book right now. Thanks...

Squint-eyed Southerner · Jul 8, 2020

It's called "Elthir's Funhouse", I believe..

Elthir · Jul 8, 2020

HonoredRohan said:
And could you please take a photo of this page? If not it’s okay I do not have this book right now. Thanks...

Have as in "own"?

It would be awesome if you asked me the page number and didn't have access to the book

Anyway, I know I fool around sometimes, but this next bit is true: my old cameras no longer have "living" batteries, and I don't own a phone outside of a landline.

🐾

Squint-eyed Southerner · Jul 8, 2020

And here I thought I was the last living 🦕

norrinradd · Jul 8, 2020

Squint-eyed Southerner said:
And here I thought I was the last living 🦕

I apologize for the reason for the prolonged issue at the very beginning.

Squint-eyed Southerner · Jul 8, 2020

No need! I was "responding" -- if it could be called that -- to Elthir, not you, norrinrad. I apologize for the derailment.

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