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🧝Galadriel in the Amazon Series

Halasían said:
I'll wait and see how it is presented in the finished product before making any decisions pro or con.
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I am trying to do that, though there are obvious issues with the show from the trailer. For me the world needs to feel believable and make sense in the confines of what has been created. I can watch the Marvel movies (for the most part) and can enjoy them because they mostly hold to this realm that has thunder gods, iron men and all sorts of things that make sense in that created world. Same goes for Tolkien, his world is incredibly detailed and that is putting it lightly. When you start doing things or having people in place that don't make sense then I am pulled out of that world. Amazon is obviously pushing diversity and inclusivity into this show, and while that makes sense in a modern world when you can literally be on the other side of the planet in 24 hours, it does not make sense in this world. Of course having issues with some casting choices generally has people calling out racism among other things when it is not that, at least for most. I will certainly watch the first episode, but my hopes are not high. Visually it looks to be stunning, story wise and believability in the world they are painting it has me concerned.
 

As far as I’m aware Galadriel’s precise or approximate age is never said. She was born in the years of the trees which Tolkien never provided any finalised dates for. Given she had reached maturity at the start of the 1st age it’s probably safe to assume that she’s at least 750 years old at the start of the second age, but beyond that it’s a bit of a guessing game. Tolkien did write a letter where he said that Galadriel’s level of maturity was similar to that of someone in their early 20’s at the start of the second age (whereas at the time of LOTR she was more like someone in their 50’s).
 
If you go by the Annals of Aman, Galadriel is approximately 1900 sun years old when the Second Age begins.
If you go by some of the manuscripts in NoMe, she could have been close to 3500 sun years old when the Second Age begins. However Tolkien seems to have run into some problems with those. And also started reworking the Annals dates (left unfinished).
Some later manuscripts may have Galadriel younger than either of the above at the start of the Second Age, perhaps less than 1000. I am not quite sure if Tolkien still intended growth years to be 144 to 1 in Aman or not.
The level of 'maturity' should be thought of more in terms of how long you have to go before reaching the time of 'fading', i.e become adult and growth years switch to life years (144 to 1) followed by a long 'youth', then a long standstill, then enter fading time.
Or, at least, that is my takeaway.
 
I'm still trying to digest NOME, but so far, I'm wondering if Tolkien, in his later years, hadn't dashed his earlier ruminations for the "Elvish Life-cycles" idea.

Looking at Elvish Life-Cycles text II (1969) in XIX for example (NOME): "Elves lived in life-cycles? sc. birth, childhood to bodily and mental maturity (as swift as that of Men) and then a period of parenthood (marriage, etc.) which could be delayed for a long time after maturity . . ." JRRT

Compare to Tolkien's "nette remark" (as I call it): "nette meant "girl approaching the adult" (in her "teens"): the growth of Elvish children after birth was little if at all slower than that of the children of Men). The Common Eldarin stem (wen-ed) wendé "maiden" applied to all stages up to the fully adult (until marriage)." JRRT, from Vinyar Tengwar 47, texts generally dated 1967-70 (reproduced in NOME as well)

And of course, we have the 1968 text (associated with The Shibboleth of Feanor): "Elves did not have beards until they entered their third cycle of life." (Nerdanel's father being exceptional here).

__________

Then we add (from The Shibboleth of Feanor, again 1968 or later), that Galadriel was born in the Bliss of Valinor (which includes the vague addition: "it was not long in the reckoning of the Blessed Realm, before that was dimmed"), and that the Eldar said that her hair had snared the light of the two trees, and many thought that this this saying gave Feanor the idea of blending the light of the Silmarils that later took shape as the Silmarils: "For Feanor begged three times . . ."

My interpretation is that Feanor begged for her hair before making the Silmarils.

_______

Back in the Annals of Aman, Galadriel was born in Valian Year 1362, so we can't have an exact number with respect to Sun Years here.

And when Tolkien originally wrote The Annals of Aman, 1 Valian Year equaled 9.582 Sun Years. Later, Tolkien appears to have desired -- or at least mused about -- 1 Valian Year rather equaling the much longer Elvish yén, or 144 Sun Years. I won't go into the details about that, but obviously using this number would make her older.

Again, using that birth year, anyway!
 
This is what I was referring to when I said Tolkien seems to have run into some problems and started reworking the Annals dates (XIII Key Dates).
Otherwise things like 40000+ year old Luthien happen (if the 144 is just laid on top of the Annals as published in MR).
 
Copia said:
Excactly this!
Gonna watch the show with an open mind.
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This is a very good point. Of course, there shall be criticism, but it is an open mind and an optimistic outlook that will improve your viewing, I expect.
 
Elbereth Vala Varda said:
Of course, there shall be criticism, but it is an open mind and an optimistic outlook that will improve your viewing, I expect.
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Indeed it shall be, for they have attempted what they could, and tried their best. An open heart and an open mind will prove useful. Criticism and positive outlook may both be expected at the end of all - but not so swiftly near the beginning.
 
Vilisse said:
Indeed it shall be, for they have attempted what they could, and tried their best. An open heart and an open mind will prove useful. Criticism and positive outlook may both be expected at the end of all - but not so swiftly near the beginning.
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An open heart and mind is ever that which is of highest importance. Without such, one might approach with certain closure that blocks completely the thoughts of optimism with sadness and despair, and nothing is seen of beauty, for the eyes that gaze not through the lense of potential, shall never perceive such.

Your position is much akin to my own. Despite the loss of true accuracy, I shall await the true and full representation before my remarks change to the tone of pure criticism. There may be hope and promise in it yet. Hope without guarantees.
 
Seems strange to me, are Elves slow to mature and level out if it takes 750 years to reach the maturity of a 20 year old?
 
wonderings said:
Seems strange to me, are Elves slow to mature and level out if it takes 750 years to reach the maturity of a 20 year old?
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There is a now a fairly notable corpus regarding this matter in general, with various Tolkienian texts written at various times, and a fairly recent addition of descriptions from the new book The Nature of Middle-Earth.

Given the status of these texts as not being published by JRRT himself, he was free to change his mind about stuff, even drastically . . . or to look at it another way, folks will look at the extant texts and give various opinions.

My approach is to give chronology (when Tolkien wrote a given text) it's due to try to find (if possible) JRRT's latest know idea . . . that is to say, barring actual publication by the author, I tend to go with later idea over earlier (unless the later conflicts with something already published).

I mean, one changes one's mind on the arrow of time

Anyway, that leads me here: Looking at Elvish Life-Cycles text II (1969) in XIX for example (The Nature of Middle-Earth), Tolkien wrote:

"Elves lived in life-cycles? sc. birth, childhood to bodily and mental maturity (as swift as that of Men) and then a period of parenthood (marriage, etc.) which could be delayed for a long time after maturity . . ." JRRT

I used to have a post that collected a number of Tolkien's ideas about Elven growth (and so on), but now that The Nature of Middle-Earth is published. . . well, that long post would have to be much longer in any case!
 
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For the record, I've no current intention to try to write such a post (try to describe stuff without opinion edging in) . . . although there is some Galadriel involved . . .



Anyone, anyone? Bueller?
 
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