🧙Gandalf at Orthanc

[Sarde]

When Gandalf arrives at Orthanc to seek the counsel of Saruman, things are lush and green around Orthanc. When Gandalf is on top of the building, the pits are there, everything is black, fires are burning, the army is being bred etc. How much time did Gandalf spend on that roof? It's the same in the book, isn't it? I mean, if Gandalf arrived and all that nasty stuff would have been going on already, he would probably have had at least a hunch that something was not quite right. So did he spend like months on the roof? Or did Saruman put up some nice trees around the front of Orthanc hoping that Gandalf wouldn't notice all the activity happening behind it as he rode up along the main road?

 

[Eledhwen]

Trees for screening wouldn't have helped; the place would have stank! If major works were already underway, then Saruman would have to use his wizardry to hide the evidence; sending winds in the right direction etc.

Gandalf was imprisoned in Orthanc on July 10th and escapes in the early hours of September 18th. Two months isn't a lot of time to do so much damage, but Saruman did have a large army of orcs, uruks and hillmen. His breeding of daylight-hardy uruks obviously began much earlier, but he would have been careful to keep everything secret until the right moment.

 

[Sarde]

Alright 2 months makes sense. It's fast, but still, it could be done I guess. Is there some timeline available for LotR (book) somewhere on the Internet? Something like

this-and-this-date: The Ring passes to Frodo
this-and-this-date: Gandalf goes to the library of Minas Tirith
etc.

Edit: Okay, I found one that seems okay, although Gandalf's escape from Orthanc is not on it, so I wonder if it misses any other majore events...

It's here:

http://www.lotruk.com/cgi-bin/timeline/timeline.cgi

If anyone knows of a more comprehensive timeline, please let me know.

 

[Eledhwen]

Is there some timeline available for LotR (book) somewhere on the Internet? Something like

this-and-this-date: The Ring passes to Frodo
this-and-this-date: Gandalf goes to the library of Minas Tirith
etc.

I was thinking to make one myself while reading the book, but perhaps I can save myself the work...

Don't trouble yourself. JRRT has already done it. Look at The Tale of Years in Appendix B at the back of your copy of Lord of the Rings (or Return of the King). The Great Years are listed in detail at the end of the chronology of The Third Age. Gandalf visited Minas Tirith to read the scroll of Isildur in 3017. It is the last entry listed before The Great Years.

It is very much worth reading on. There is more of the story there, followed by a chronology of what happens after the fall of Barad-Dur, and then a very interesting list of dates taking you right to the end of King Elessar's (Aragorn's) reign.

 

[Sarde]

Oh alrighty. I am reading TLotR for the first time and I am reading it from beginning to end. So I didn't look at the Appendices yet. Thanks for informing me. I'm getting along quite well. Read more than 100 pages yesterday, am now approaching Cirith Ungol. *Shudders* Plan to do a lot more reading today.

 

[Greenwood]

Jackson inherited the problem from the book. Gandalf at the Council of Elrond in FOTR:

'They took me and they set me alone on the pinnacle of Orthanc, in the place where Saruman was accustomed to watch the stars. There is no descent save by a narrow stair of many thousand steps, and the valley below seems far away. I looked on it and saw that, whereas it had once been green and fair, it was now filled with pits and forges. Wolves and orcs were housed in Isengard, for Saruman was mustering a geat force on his own account, in rivalry of Sauron and not in his service yet. Over all his works a dark smoke hung and wrapped itseld about the sides of Orthanc. ....'

Tolkien lessens the problem somewhat by having Gandalf arrive at Isengard late in the evening unlike the daylight arrival in the movie, but still we must be willing to suspend some disbelief to accept that Gandalf would not have noticed some of these changes as he went from the gates of Isengard to the tower of Orthanc. (Before an ardent Tolkien defender points it out, yes I know that Gandalf says he felt afraid when Isengard's gates closed behind him, though he did not know why. As in the arrival after nightfall, it helps, but does not fully explain Gandalf overlooking the changes in Isengard. I will also state that this has never bothered me in all the times I have read the books. Overall, the books are so magnificent, minor things like this are just nit-picking and don't really matter.)

 

[joxy]

Jackson inherited the problem from the book.
....does not fully explain Gandalf overlooking the changes in Isengard. I will also state that this has never bothered me in all the times I have read the books.

Whatever the extent of the problem that he inherited, he magnified it a thousand times as soon he decided he didn't like the scenario Tolkien had given him, and radically altered it. There's quite a difference between arriving late at night, and taking a stroll around the garden in the sunshine.
As many of us here have said before: WHY does PJ do these things? He always gets himself into a mess when he starts "tampering"....

 

[aragil]

I would say that Jackson nullified the problem with his tampering. The felling of trees etc, at Isengard in the movies does not begin until after Gandalf is imprisoned. Of course, this requires that Saruman can make a huge army in a relatively short period of time, but, well, he is a wizard, after all.

 

[Eledhwen]

As many of us here have said before: WHY does PJ do these things? He always gets himself into a mess when he starts "tampering"....

A lie grows and grows until it is as big as the nose on your face (The Blue Fairy - Pinocchio)

FotR, The Council of Elrond:Isengard is a circle of sheer rocks that enclose a valley as with a wall

Saruman probably had the gates shut immediately because he thought Gandalf would smell a rat as soon as he got through them. Also, Isengard was not small, it filled a valley. I thought it looked quite diddy in the films - I imagined the circle to be much larger, and so the forges might not have been so obvious from the road, especially (as Greenwood points out) when arriving in poor light. Saruman was expecting Gandalf, so he would have disguised his activity until the gates were closed.

 

[Eledhwen]

Oh alrighty. I am reading TLotR for the first time and I am reading it from beginning to end. So I didn't look at the Appendices yet. Thanks for informing me. I'm getting along quite well. Read more than 100 pages yesterday, am now approaching Cirith Ungol. *Shudders* Plan to do a lot more reading today.

I think the books must be a big surprise after watching the whole story on film. I will never forget the last sentence in TTT book. It made me run to get RotK, only to find that the story re-started with the other half of the fellowship! The suspense!!!

 

[Sarde]

I am thoroughly enjoying the book and reading it at a high pace. I have a one volume edition, so no problem there, I can just go on reading. This book has been a wonderful experience until now. Oh, gosh, I was crying like anything (more than during the film) when Frodo had been stung by Shelob and Sam believes he is dead. And yes, I hated leaving Frodo and Sam behind at the end of TTT, even though I know how it all ends. But it's not so much the suspense, it's the fact that I feel I am there with them and I do not want to leave them in that dark place. But I had to and I am now on the eve of the Battle of Pelennor Fields.

It is very interesting to see the differences between the films and the book. I couldn't say which I prefer, but I do know that if it hadn't been for the films, I would've never read the book. I did try one time years ago (read The Hobbit then and started in TLotR, but couldn't get 'into it'), but I probably would not have picked them up again if it hadn't been for the movie trilogy. So whatever can be said against PJ, I for one am very greatful to him.

However, I do understand some of the objections raised by fans of the book. I can condone most of the changes, some even make the film better. The one thing I found hard to digest, is the whole story with Faramir. Why did Faramir have to take Sam and Frodo capture like that in the film? It would have worked just fine the way it is in the books I believe. But anyway, I do so love those films and I also love the book.

I have officially become an addict by now.

 

[joxy]

....this requires that Saruman can make a huge army in a relatively short period of time.

Which takes us neatly back to the problem of "there's always smoke from Isengard, these days"....

 

[Starbrow]

I'm happy to greet another addict, Sarde.

I think the movies are great for the most part. But I absolutely hate what PJ did to Faramir. That was one of my favorite parts of the book and he ruined it.

 

[Eledhwen]

Oh, gosh, I was crying like anything (more than during the film) when Frodo had been stung by Shelob and Sam believes he is dead. And yes, I hated leaving Frodo and Sam behind at the end of TTT, even though I know how it all ends. But it's not so much the suspense, it's the fact that I feel I am there with them and I do not want to leave them in that dark place. But I had to and I am now on the eve of the Battle of Pelennor Fields.

I agree that knowing the end doesn't alter the way you feel. I have read the book many times, and I still feel the cold nights out in the open and the feeling of vulnerability; the gravel crunch beneath my feet as I step out of the Elven boat on the journey down Anduin; and the sharpness of the clinker as I hide in hollows in the spoils of Mordor. And the wearyness! PJ did his best, but the sheer exhaustion of the fellowship's journey, either in desparate haste or creeping stealth, carrying on in the face of hopelessness, is so real in the books.

Also, I preferred Radagast to a moth, undeveloped character or not.