Gandalfs choice - Folly or Foreseen?

[Ancalagon]

'I will,' said Aragorn heavily. `You followed my lead almost to disaster in the snow, and have said no word of blame. I will follow your lead now - if this last warning does not move you. It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware! '

Aragorn, it could be said at this point before entering Moria, had a great foreboding of doom that lay on Gandalf. Yet, it strikes me that Gandalf, although not openly concerned, knew that his downfall was to come in Moria.

Do you think Gandalf accepted this fate in the interests of preserving the fellowship?

 

[hpfan55]

I agree with Confusticated Gandalf knew that Frodo surviving was more important than his survival so he took the chance.

 

[tur-kheleden]

i think mithrandir knew of the foreboding destiny but i doubt he thought it writtin in stone. i think this becuase a barlog would be a huge danger to the ring. it might even be able to weild it well enough to become a power.

 

[kohaku]

I think gandalf felt the same foreboding as aragorn, but he believed there was a chance they would go unnoticed. Also important to him, as others have stated, was that he was the one who was in greatest danger, not the others. And he made sure of that... he chose to let the others run before him and cross the bridge first while he faced the balrog alone.
the balrog weilding the ring is an interesting notion, but i wonder if the ancient creature would for care for such a thing or even know of its existence and potency after spending so long deep in the mountains. at the very least the balrog would not have known that frodo carried the ring.

 

[Lantarion]

Hmm, I'm not sure about that. Is it stated anywhere that Balrogs ('Bar-logs'! ) had fingers? Or indeed much any physical form? It is said in 'The Bridge of Khazad-Dûm':

Something was coming up behind them. What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.

But the supposed 'man-shape' seems to be a very vague sort of description, and implies only that it was a little bit like something that might be familiar to the Company: it wasn't actually a Man!
And it is also said in this chapter:

In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs.

But I think this 'hand' is not actually a hand with digits: after all the Balrog is a spirit of fire and shadow, and has no other mortal form.
SO I don't think it could wield the Ring.

 

[Elu Thingol]

The last time I checked you had to have digits to hold a sword or a whip

 

[Ravenna]

I don't think the trip through Moria can truly be called folly; the fellowship had already tried all other valid routes and had little or no choice left. However, I do believe that Gandalf, as well as Aragorn had a foreboding of doom regarding the endeavour, but for the sake of the quest, Gandalf was prepared to take that risk, even as he risked and lost his life on the bridge of Khazad-dum.

 

[Ancalagon]

I just wonder if this was essential in Gandalfs role, that he needed to have this confrontation with the Balrog. More precisely, he needed to give up his spirit, return to Aman, be re-appointed to continue his task and be strengthened as a result?

Saruman was already a lost cause, and now Saruman of many colours. Gandalf inherited his title of 'The White' and seemed more potent as a result of his transcendance following his 'death'.

Gandalf was reborn because he had to be, and he knew it all along.

 

[Ancalagon]

No, I don't think it was as simple as that, but in essence that is true. It could be akin to a coming of age nearly for Gandalf.

 

[Bilbo Baggins57]

It's not like they had any other choice but 2 go into Moria. If Frodo & Co. had tried 2 go on/around the mountains they would have been seen by Sauron's spies or they might not have survived at all. So Gandalf probabley figured they had nothing to lose in Moria. I'm not sure if he exactly knew he would be reborn, he may have just thought the Fellowship could only have a better chance through that way. Yeah I agree, he was probably counting on the chance that they would pass through unnoticed. I doubt he expected Pippin to accidently knock the rock into the well & wake up the balrog and/or orcs.

 

[Ancalagon]

Do you honestly think that Pippin dropping the stone was the reason they were discovered?

 

[Turgon]

I've be pondering this question for a few days now and cannot decide either way. Gandalf knew nothing of the Balrog in Moria, and therefore cannot have foreseen a confrontation with so great a foe. (Although I'm sure he had some intimations of the Power of the Creature formerly known as Durin's Bane) And thinking about it, apart from a lucky swipe on the part of the Balrog... Gandalf would have been home free...

As to whether or not he knew he needed to return to Valinor to be reappointed in his power (or indeed whether or not he knew he could return to Middle Earth at all once his physical form was slain) I'm not still in two minds. Yet the battle with the Balrog on the Bridge of Khazad-dûm was not the first time Gandalf had been ready to lay down his life. Years before in a minor skirmish in the eastern foot-hills of the Misty Mountains...

from 'Out of the Frying-Pan into the Fire'

'Then Gandalf climbed to the top of his tree. The sudden splendour flashed from his wand like lightening, as he got ready to spring down from on high right among the spears of the goblins. That would have been the end of him, though he would probably have killed many of them as he came hurtling down like a thunderbolt. But he never leapt.'

Given that this quote is pre-LoTR (and quite possibly before Gandalf had evolved into a Emissary of the West) not much can be drawn from it. Yet he does seems rather nonchalant about his life - considering he is just about to embark on a journey to flush Sauron out of Mirkwood - is there a possibility that all the Istari thought they could be returned to ME if their physical forms were slain?

After Saruman's physical form is destroyed, his spirit can be seen briefly glancing westwards as if waiting for something...

from 'The Scouring of the Shire'
'To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.'

Umm... I'm just babbling now...

 

[Ravenna]

I would asssume that, being a Maia, Gandalf knew that although his mortal shape could be destroyed, his spirit would survive, so death, in some ways would have held little fear beyond the fear of the quest's failure if he was not there to help. Whether or not he knew that he would be able to come back as he did I'm not so sure about.

 

[Kat]

I am inclined to agree with Anc, the fall of Gandalf in Moria has always reminded me of the scene in the first Star Wars movie, when Obiwan is fighting Vader, and says something like 'if you kill me i will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine', and let himself be killed. It seemed to me that Gandalf perhaps knew that he would have to be returned as the White, to match the power of Sauron, and fulfill his task.

 

[Cirdan]

I think that going through Moria would definately have serious consequences for the company. Since Durin's Bane, the Balrog of Khazad-dum, was Maia, just like Gandalf or Saruman, he would be obviously worried that he would meet a foe comparable to his own.

I think that Gandalf knew that danger coming to him was great, but that is just what I believe from what I have read.

On the shape of Balrogs and if they could weild a ring: Despite the movie's depiction of them as a minotaur-like creature, Balrogs were man-shaped, but fire streamed from them and were swarthed in darkness and carried whips of flames. Though I can't be sure, I believe that a Balrog could wield a ring of power since I would think that man-shaped implied that it had fingers. as a maia I would think that one would have the mental capacity to wield it, if he in fact knew that the Ring was moving through Khazad-dum.

 

[Cirdan]

You could also explain as to why Aragorn and Gandalf discussed the plans of the fellowship because they were friends and Gandalf knew Aragorn could be trusted. They already suspected that Boromir could not be trusted because of his lust to possess the Ring.

 

[Ancalagon]

They already suspected that Boromir could not be trusted because of his lust to possess the Ring.

There was no suspicion of Boromir by any member of the Fellowship, save possibly Frodo who noticed Boromir look at the ring with a possible glint. Gandalf and Aragorn certainly had no reason to doubt Boromirs intention to stay true to the wishes of the council.

 

[pohuist]

I believe that Gandalf did not foresee his death or that he will/needs to be reborn. If Gandalf could foresee everything, how would you explain the many passages in the book when he is thinking long and hard what to do next and how to do it. He simply went into Moria b/c he needed to get to the other side of the mountains and there was no other suitable way. (Going further South was bringing them too close to Isengard). He passed through Moria once and beleived he could do it again. I don't think he knew about Balrog. He knew that Moria was perilous, but everywhere else it was perilous as well.

 

[pohuist]

Originally posted by Confusticated


I don't think anyone said that Gandalf could forsee everything. But lets say that he could forsee something, does this mean that he wouldn't have to think about it? I think not.
Remember when Sam and Frodo looked into the mirror of Galadiel? They forsaw things, but they had to make all the choices.

Ancalagon and you in the first 2 posts on this thread suggest that Gandalf foresaw he would die in Moria. Why that is not 'everything', from reading the book we could infer that the Quest would not have been successful without Gandalf being reborn. I believe, Gandalf knew that. So, he must have foreseen that he will be reborn, even stronger.
And I don't think he could foresee it, therefore, I don't belive that he foresaw his death in Moria. However, as my earlier post suggests, it wasn't folly either.

As for Hobbits, c'me on -- that was Mirror of Galadriel, Elven magic, a totally different thing, didn't she say the Mirror shows many things, ...some that will happen, some that will never happen.

 

[pohuist]

I just think that he thought that Moria is dangerous, especially for him, but its the best way under the circumstances. Actually, with Wargs around and Garadras rejecting them, they didn't have much choice.

Gandalf had some power of foresight but it stemmed more from his experience of dealings with the world than of his Istari nature.

BTW, Confusticated, LOVE your logo.