Gandalfs choice - Folly or Foreseen?

[Confusticated]

Originally posted by pohuist
I just think that he thought that Moria is dangerous, especially for him, but its the best way under the circumstances. Actually, with Wargs around and Garadras rejecting them, they didn't have much choice.

Gandalf had some power of foresight but it stemmed more from his experience of dealings with the world than of his Istari nature.

BTW, Confusticated, LOVE your logo.

That could be so.
and I'm glad you like the avatar, it's had a few compliments.

 

[Ancalagon]

Ancalagon and you in the first 2 posts on this thread suggest that Gandalf foresaw he would die in Moria.

In truth I offered an opinion to the forum, though not absolutely my own. It is essential in getting a thread in motion to offer an opinion; whether it be truth of the Dragon is another matter.

 

[pohuist]

Originally posted by Ancalagon


In truth I offered an opinion to the forum, though not absolutely my own. It is essential in getting a thread in motion to offer an opinion; whether it be truth of the Dragon is another matter.

I know how that goes: "The views presented are not necessarily that of ...".
But it was your post, nonetheless, and it suggested certain things. Whether or not you actually subscribe to that opinion is irrelevant for the purposes of the discussion, the only information we have is your post.

I totally agree that you need an opinion to get the thread going, and I don't necessarily always argue the point of view I actually hold.

 

[Grond]

Gandalf's choice was neither folly nor foreseen. Going through Moria was a choice borne of necessity. There were no other avenues to explore (save for Harad's Gap of Rohan which was rejected out of hand by Gandalf as being too close to Saruman). Moria was the only choice, be it logical or suicidal. I also reject the notion that Gandalf had to be reborn the White for the mission to succeed. Gandalf was brought back bigger and better than before, but he was not pushover before he fell. Let us not forget that he bested a Balrog as the Grey.

Also, I am not aware of him performing any action after he became the White that he could not have performed as the Gray. Saruman always feared him (as outlined very clearly by JRRT in UT) and someone feared is someone who is likely ultimately to dominate you. Gandalf would have still (IMHO) have bested Saruman anyway. Remember that Saruman had technically already removed himself from the Council by becoming Saruman "the Many-coloured".

In summary, Gandalf went through Moria because he had to. He died to protect his friends. He would not have known what his fate would be. It was the Valar that decided to send him back. They did this as a reward for his self sacrifice and to aid the People's of Middle-earth. It was not folly nor foreseen merely fore - tunate.

 

[Ceorl]

I have to agree with Grond on those points, Gandalf never knew that there was a Balrog in Moria only that there was something of great power. And who of the Istari would dream that there could be something of greater power than themselves sitting idly by in the 3rd age of ME?

Also someone mentioned that they didn't know whether Balrogs had fingers? The maiar were not material in essence but spiritual, they clothed themselves in flesh so as to be more recognisable to the Children of Illuvatar. The balrog could very well have created himself fingers had he figured out the power of the ring.

Also Gandalf may have suspected the danger to him self but I seriously doubt that he foresaw his own death, however the Ainur(the good ones anyway) have been shown as completely unselfish and I am pretty sure Gandalf would have given his life for any one of the company.

 

[Confusticated]

Ceorl...do you think that Aragorn knew of the Balrog?

 

[Ceorl]

I am pretty sure he didn't. If he has he would have told Gandalf and then Gandalf would not have lead them through Moria, no matter how dangerous the other paths were. His feeling of foreboding was a hereditary type prophecy thing I quote:

but Ivorwen his wife who was also foresighted

That will indeed be your fate" said Gilraen; but though she had in a measure the foresight of her people

The Dunedain have a measure of foresight.

 

[pohuist]

Originally posted by Grond
I also reject the notion that Gandalf had to be reborn the White for the mission to succeed. I am not aware of him performing any action after he became the White that he could not have performed as the Gray. Gandalf would have still (IMHO) have bested Saruman anyway.

I respectfully disagree. Saruman (of many colors) have imprisoned Gandalf the Grey in Orthanc before, so I don't see how Gandalf was stronger. We are not necessarily afraid of only those more powerful, we are usually afraid of those powerful enough to do some damage, even if we believe them to be weaker. Gandalf the White was allowed to reveal his strength every now and then that proved quite useful during the talks with Saruman and resquing Faramir from Nasgul's assault.

 

[Gildor the Elf]

I think Gandalf was trying to keep the fellowship far of orcs, throlls and the balrog, and Gandalf wants the ring away from Sauron in that time.

 

[Kat]

Grond, in an earlier post, you pointed out that Gandalf feared Saruman. I agree, to what extent do you think the status of Gandalf as the bearer of one of the Three play in this? Does the discord between S and G stem from this, or from a fear of Gandalf's strength regardless of the Ring?

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by Kat
Grond, in an earlier post, you pointed out that Gandalf feared Saruman. I agree, to what extent do you think the status of Gandalf as the bearer of one of the Three play in this? Does the discord between S and G stem from this, or from a fear of Gandalf's strength regardless of the Ring?

Actually the author wrote a lot about the discord of which you speak.

from Unfinished Tales, The Istari
...But Círdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red.

"For," said he, "great labours and perils lie before you, and lest your task prove too great and wearisome, take this Ring for your aid and comfort. It was entrusted to me only to keep secret, and here upon the West-shores it is idle; but I deem that in days ere long to come it should be in nobler hands than mine, that may wield it for the kindling of all hearts to courage." 2 And the Grey Messenger took the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest.

and from the same chapter
...But also to be remarked are the coming of the Istari to Middle-earth at different times; Círdan's perception that Gandalf was the greatest of them; Saruman's knowledge that Gandalf possessed the Red Ring, and his jealousy;

I think you misread my post. It was always Saruman who feared and loathed Gandalf. I feel this was because Gandalf had that which Saruman lacked... compassion. While Saruman saw himself as high above the Peoples of Middle-earth and felt he was sent to save them from themselves... Gandalf saw himself as a vessel of aid sent by the Valar to aid the Peoples of Middle-earth and to enable them to reach their full potential. Where Saruman had skill of voice and hand, Gandalf had skill of heart and mind. It was not in question who would ultimately win out.

Someone that Gandalf did fear was Sauron. The HoMe has information where Olorin was, indeed, hesistant and resistent to go to Middle-earth at the outset of the mission for fear of facing the greatest of the Maia, Gorthaur the Cruel. I'll get you the quotes tomorrow.

 

[Kat]

cool, thanks for the info, I'll lokk forward to the quotes. My reading of that chapter of UT was that Cirdan giving the ring to Gandalf was THE major dent in Saruman's ego, thus his dislike for our Grey (then White) hero. I haven't read HoMe yet though, so any further info provided will be eagerly accepted.

 

[eltonho88]

Firstly, I don;t understand why we should link Christianity to LOTR. I feel LOTR should be a learning lesson apart from our religion. To meet the challenges ahead bravely and un-timidatedly, etc.

So Gandalf, Saruman and even Sauron are Maia, they have no fear to die. Folly or foreseen, what Gandalf wants is to get rid of the evil that is at hand. Gandalf is not afraid of the Balrog who is also a Maia and he will not be afraid to meet Sauron. He challenged Sauron spiritly at Sarn Gebir to warn Frodo to take off his ring.

An off -track question - It was said that the Dwarves dug too deep into Moria to release the Balrog. How, why, when did the Balrog got captured at the deep earth below. By who?

------------------------------------------

Balrogs - maia twisted by Morgoth

 

[Kat]

great question...

 

[Grond]

from The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Letter #144 To Naomi Mitchison, 25 April 1954
The Balrog is a survivor from the Silmarillion and the legends of the First Age. So is Shelob. The Balrogs, of whom the whips were the chief weapons, were primeval spirits of destroying fire, chief servants of the primeval Dark Power of the First Age. They were supposed to have been all destroyed in the overthrow of Thangorodrim, his fortress in the North. But it is here found (there is usually a hang-over especially of evil from one age to another) that one had escaped and taken refuge under the mountains of Hithaeglin (the Misty Mountains). It is observable that only the Elf knows what the thing is – and doubtless Gandalf.

from The Silmarillion, Chapter 24, Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath
But it availed him not. The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth; and the uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.

from The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, III Durin's Folk[/i]
The Dwarves delved deep at that time, seeking beneath Barazinbar for mithril, the metal beyond price that was becoming yearly ever harder to win.40 Thus they roused from sleep41 a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundation to the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth. Durin was slain by it, and the year after Náin I, his son; and then the glory of Moria passed, and its people were destroyed of fled far away.

from The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, Footnote 41[/i]
41 Or released it from prison; it may well be that it had already been awakened by the malice of Sauron.

There are a few references which speak of the sleeping terror which lay under the mountains.

I would speculate that the Balrog escaped under the Earth after the Great Battle where Morgoth was emprisoned and Ancalagon the Black was slain by Earendil. Sauron was ashamed and unabashed and did not wish to kneel to the Power of the Valar and serve penitence for his misdeeds and I imagine the Balrog was of much the same mind. Rather than subjugate himself to serving a long penance in Valinor, he fled and his himself at the roots of the Misty Mountains and entered a sleep of helplessness? The Dwarves later awake him (or Sauron's awakened him and the Dwarves merely freed him) as they delved deeper and deeper for their precious mithril.

At least that's the way I see... but I could be wrong.

 

[Kat]

Thank you learned friend! Interesting quotes, I agree with your interpretation.

 

[Ancalagon]

'yoink'

 

[GuardianRanger]

This thread was started quite a while before I joined, and yet, just the other day, I see a new post.

My question is:

Why wouldn't the fellowship use the Old Forest road to cross the Misty Mountains, then follow the Anduin south? At best case, they could stop in Lothlorien and ultimately get boats. At worst case, the trek south along the western shores of the River.

Gandalf would certainly know the way; to the point that I think he would have probably steered clear of the porch to the goblin realm he inadvertanly discovered in The Hobbit.

Yes, it would be a little out of the way and take more time, but, no moria, and Gap of Rohan.

I hope I didn't miss something obvious as to why that route was not originally taken.

 

[Húrin Thalion]

Well... I think that there is mention but since I ma lazy of nature I won't check that and take i out of my memory. It was because the orcs of the area had started to multiply again and would be guarding the passes. He hoped that the Redhorn pass and Moria would still be clear since it was further from their capitol, Gundabad. Also they would have to get past Dôl Guldur which was not a very pleasant place at the time.
Húrin Thalion

 

[Eriol]

It is explained in the chapter "The Ring Goes South", sorry if I don't give a quote, but they travelled on the western side of the mountains because the terrain was less clear and therefore spies would not be as successful in spotting them; also, on the East side there were Wargs. Finally, they expected the Redhorn pass to be open, since it is much more to the south than the High Pass close to Rivendell and it would be perhaps free of orcs that were multiplying again in the North after the War of Dwarves and Orcs.

Please someone find a quote .

On the actual matter of the thread, we assume that Gandalf had to die to become the White. I see no reason to assume this, and I don't think Gandalf would think that way. For all we know his "unveiling" could take place while they were at Lothlórien, or is Eru limited by a living body as opposed to a dead one?

I think foresight by Aragorn and in a certain measure by Gandalf is only a feeling of dread, unknown fear, nothing as specific as "I will get the Balrog, die, and be reborn". (As someone posted if it were not for a lucky strike by the Balrog Gandalf would leave with the Fellowship).