Gandalfs role in post-moria ⚔️war of the ring

But I am really enjoying it, escpecially the Ainulindale(I'm a musician) and being the loser that I am I took notes on the Valaquenta to piece together the realtions and power rankings of the Valar.

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Arg! Don't call yourself a loser for such a thing! I can assure you that people from this forum take many, many notes while reading the books. In fact, a lot of us go even farther than that. So don't be so hard on yourself - note taking on Tolkien's books is a very good thing!

Originally posted by morello13
Lantarion,
I hope I live in a small town, but even so I hope somebody has taken out the Sil from the public library. I got it form my school's library and my shcool is pretty small, less than a 1000 kids.
How do you get those different symbols above the letters?
I've heard the Sil is pretty hard so far I've read Ainulindale, Valaquenta, and Of the Beggining Of Days, it definitely is alot deeper than the Hobit and LotR. But I am really enjoying it, escpecially the Ainulindale(I'm a musician) and being the loser that I am I took notes on the Valaquenta to piece together the realtions and power rankings of the Valar. I hope its doesn't get much more difficult and that it remains as interesting.
thanks for the engouraging words
J>

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well if you like Ainulindale you should see the discussion about it. As a whole the book is not so difficult,but it's complicated in term of names,relationship between differen characters etc...

Interesting thread. Maybe Gandalf sacrificed himself at Khazad Dum, but I don't think that the final outcome was certain, by any means. The Sil's creation mythology does imply predestination, but the exact cause and effect relationship is never thoroughly explored. Was what happened always going to happen, or were there other conceivable outcomes? I don't personally like the idea that, if Gandalf had not fallen at Khazad Dum, then everything would hav been OK as Eru would have found some other way to kill him, thus ensuring victory for the free peoples.I dont think it worked like that, or that Tolkien saw it that way. Such a viewpoint demeans the valor of Gandalf, Frodo, Aragorn and all the rest. If they were igoing to win anyway, their deeds were effectively meaningless.

I think that if Gandalf had survived, there would still have been a chance of success. It would have been a very slim chance, yes, but that's all it ever was going to be. Gandalf's exact plan was never revealed, but you can be fairly certain that he did have one.

As it happened, Gandalf's death - his sacrifice - worked, though there is no way he could have known this at the time. His sacrifice, if it were indeed such a thing, was made in order to enable the rest of the Fellowship to escape, rather than to have a spiritual service and return with a souped up engine.

Consider this...what would have happened if Gandalf had not fallen with the Balrog, and it survived? It was now awakened, and alerted to the presence and whereabouts of the company containing Gandalf, and the ring. (which it might or might not have been able to sense). It possibly could have been under Sauron's control, as well, or at least would have allied with Sauron. This is why, when Celeborn heard that they ran into a Balrog, he said "I would not have let you cross my border". If it survived, it might have left Moria, and chased them into Lorien, where even the power of the Elves couldn't have stopped it completely. Even if Galadriel and her ring managed to keep it out of Lorien, it might have done great harm to the free peoples in other areas, north or south. Imagine the balrog, with an army of orcs out of Moria, attacking Rivendell. I think Gandalf knew it had to be destroyed, if at all possible, or it would cause much greater problems later on. Just like Smaug, and the quest of Erebor. Death and fire in Eriador

But Leto, consider this:
Second Age 1 - Third Age 1980 (~5400 years): Balrog is imprisoned in the mountain and does not attempt to leave.

Third Age 1980 - Third Age 2799: The Balrog is no longer imprisoned in Moria and still doesn't leave in spite of the fact that the Necromancer is stirring just next door in Dol Guldur.

Third Age 2799: War of the Dwarves and Orcs ends outside the gates of Moria, the Balrog comes in visual contact with the stunty folks who have just decimated the Orcs of Moria, yet still he doesn't leave.

Third Age 2800 - Third Age 3018: More peacable living for the Balrog in his 'borrowed' Dwarven mansion. Even after an unwelcome and short lived intrusion by the Dwarves, the Balrog does not leave.

Why do you assume that the Balrog would suddenly feel the need to catch some fresh air at that point? There is no evidence in the text that I could see to suggest that the Balrog could sense the ring, or that it would ally itself to Sauron. To me the Balrog appeared to be very content in his underground lair- probably still afeard of the Valar. In any case, if he had gone to Rivendell he at least could have given Glorfindel something to do during the War of the Ring. I don't think any Orcish Army would have much luck in Rivendell- remember Sauron himself couldn't take it back in the Second Age!


GTG- If you were referring to me, I never meant to imply that the quest was doomed to success (other than the fact that JRRT was prone to writing ~happy endings). I was only trying to point out that the actual act of Gandalf going over the edge was not critical for the mission's success. However, I agree with you that the selfless decisions like facing the Balrog were critical to the mission's success. Here's what Tolkien says about the ultimate fulfillment of the quest:

It is possible for the good, even the saintly, to be subjected to a power of evil which is too great for them to overcome – in themselves. In this case the cause (not the 'hero') was triumphant, because by the exercise of pity, mercy, and forgiveness of injury, a situation was produced in which all was redressed and disaster averted. Gandalf certainly foresaw this. See Vol. I p. 68-9.(1) Of course, he did not mean to say that one must be merciful, for it may prove useful later – it would not then be mercy or pity, which are only truly present when contrary to prudence. Not ours to plan ! But we are assured that we must be ourselves extravagantly generous, if we are to hope for the extravagant generosity which the slightest easing of, or escape from, the consequences of our own follies and errors represents. And that mercy does sometimes occur in this life.
Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far.

1. "Pity? It was Pity that stayed [Bilbo's] hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so. With Pity."'

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