Gandalfs role in post-moria ⚔️war of the ring

[Arvedui]

Hmmm.. To think that I have disagreed with PJ for altering sequences from the book, when making the movie.

Actually, I think Nenya Evenstar, hit spot on in her post early in the thread. Gandalf was meant to fall in Moria. Iluvatar HAD to change him, because of the treachery of Saruman. The fall with the balrog was just a convenient excuse to let that happen. If that hadn't occured, something else would have happened, with the same result.

Gandalf the White.

 

[aragil]

Uh-oh Arvedui- you're actually agreeing with PJ's version, which had Gandalf purposefully let go of the bridge (listen to the director's commentary of the EE), because he 'knew' he needed to fall.

Still, was it absolutely necessary for Gandalf to fall? Not as long as the Eagles are around- they could drop off the ring bearer (and any grey wizard accompanying him) right on the slopes of Orodruin (as they later picked up Frodo on the slopes of the Mountain while it was erupting I see no reason to object to this). Eagles are faster than anything Sauron possesses, so there is no chance for a Mordor intervention at this point. Of course, had this been the course then we would have missed out on a whole bunch of moral lessons, so the story would have been much (much much) poorer. However, strictly speaking Gandalf did not have to fall in Moria for the quest to be successful (IMO).

 

[Arvedui]

Uh-oh Arvedui- you're actually agreeing with PJ's version, which had Gandalf purposefully let go of the bridge (listen to the director's commentary of the EE), because he 'knew' he needed to fall.

No, I did not agree with PJ. I haven't heard him say that. Neither do I say that Gandalf 'knew' that he needed to fall. I think he didn't. My point is that he was sent to ME together with four others, who all failed. Saruman,the worst. As Nenya E. pointed out, those who sent him knew that they had to do somethin to counter Saruman's treachery. The fight with the Balrog was convenient for this purpose. If that hadn't happened, something else would have happened, with the same outcome: Gandalf would have died, and from that, be transformed.

You have a point concerning the eagles, but if that had happened, the book would've been 20 pages long, and not the second most read book in the 20th century.

 

[Lantarion]

Yes, and in the book the thong of the fiery whip of the Balrog curls around Gandalf's ankle, and pulls him down..
But on the topic: I'd also have to say that Gandalf would not have been able to accomplish the feats he did as the Gray. I see in the book that he is beginning to get very tired, not like I-want-to-go-to-sleep tired, but weary; he is, after all, the only Istar still true to his mission, and he has been working against Sauron for all of his life on Middle-Earth, nonstop. That could wear anybody down; and after all, he's only a moderately powerful Maia, not a Vala. And I really think that he would have collapsed not long after he had supposedly vanquished the Balrog, and would have become ill or just died: used his energy source up, in a sense.
But as the White, his energy sourse was renewed, and its potency was even greater than it was when he first set foot on the shores of M-E. And it's completely due to these supermaian (hehe) skills that he acquires from Ilúvatar that he has the ourage and the stamina to continue till the end of the Quest.

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

Thank you, Arvedui, for the staunch support.

I have been thinking about the whole Eagle thing. For some reason I simply cannot picture the Eagles carrying hobbits all the way into Mordor to destroy the Ring. The Eagles did not ever seem very active in contesting Sauron, and I see no reason why they would have begun to do such a thing then. They were Maia of Manwe and were not on ME for the purpose of aiding the peoples of ME against Sauron's threat. That was the purpose of the Istari. It seems to me that Maia keep to their jobs and do not meddle in the jobs of the other Maia. The Eagles' friendship with Gandalf can easily be accounted for as Gandalf was akin to them, and they could easily have been told about him through Manwe. However, I see no evidence to support the idea that the Eagles would have outstepped their bounds and their job by carrying Hobbits into Moria to destroy a danger when there was already someone else taking care of that job. Why did the Eagles submit to carry Frodo and Sam out of the fires of Mordor? Well, 1: Gandalf asked them to, and it is apparent that the Eagles respected Gandalf because of the friendship between them, but this does not mean that the Eagles would outstep their bounds and help destroy the Ring. 2: Gandalf's job had been accomplished. 3: It would have made for a very bad story if Frodo and Sam had been left in Mordor.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Eliot]

No, I don't think that Gandalf would have been the same if he hadn't fallen. I don't think they would have won the war of the ring either.

 

[aragil]

Regarding the four Istari: I still say that Radagast remained true to his job, which was laid upon him more by Yavanna than by Iluvatar. In any case, without Radagast GtG never makes it out of Orthanc alive, and then I think the quest certainly fails. Why JRRT seems so hard on the poor Istar is anyone's guess, but at least Christopher Tolkien sticks up for him.

Regarding the Eagles: Tolkien decided they weren't Maia, as Maia can't have kids and Gwaihir was the son of Thorondor (don't ask me why Melian got special treatment). In any case, they were active in Middle-earth- they repeatedly aided the Noldor in the First Age who were under the ban, and they helped Gandalf out on no less than six separate occasions in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Are you honestly trying to tell me that they would have been prohibited from saving the Quest if it was on the point of failure? Where is the evidence for that? Of course I agree, if the Eagles had done the job it would have been a poor book- anybody who is interested should see these three threads for more discussion on the topic:
Could Eagles enter the aerial borders of Mordor?
The Eagles
and Why didn't Frodo Fly to Mt. Doom?

 

[Anamatar IV]

There may have been an order form manwe not to aid against sauron but theres no evidence. But also the eagles may have been able to get frodo and sam out of there because that was not directly changing the course of the war against sauron. The dark lord is dead, there can be no more interferring.

 

[aragil]

But the Eagles interfered several times before the Dark Lord was dead. Remember, Gandalf the White was pretty impressive, but he couldn't have done much for the cause if he had been left alone on the Peak of Caradhras. The fact that the Eagles could rescue him there (at the bidding of Galadriel, not Manwe) shows that they could directly interfere in the war against Sauron, just as they could directly interfere in the war against Morgoth back when the Valar were sitting on their tushies.

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

In any case, they were active in Middle-earth- they repeatedly aided the Noldor in the First Age who were under the ban

Arg! I did not even think about that! Ah well! As for the rest... you have a point! So the Eagles are stickers in my side.

 

[morello13]

whose Illuvatar? Some Valar? Ive only read LOTR
I dont rmemeber Gnadalf conrfornting the witch king, when did this happen?
One more, did he actually die or was he just left on that mountain summit?

 

[Anamatar IV]

Iluvutar, Eru-The one. The "god" sort of. He created the ainur and with his themes they created arda. Gandalf confronted the witch-king at the battlle of the pelannor fields. It doesnt say much in detail but in Gandalfs dialogue he says it. He died, got sent back to Valinor, and got sent back to finish his task.

 

[morello13]

thank you

 

[Lantarion]

Yes, Anamatar, you are basically correct; although I don't think Gandalf (Olórin, his spirit) actually went anywhere as such. Why would Eru whisk him off to Valinor, just to send him back to the top of Zirak-zigil?
But sorry, that was unrelated. Carry on!

PS: Morello, I suggest you get your hands on a Silmarillion ASAP. It's the best book Tolkien ever wrote, IMO.

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

Ahhh... but I can't carry on Lantarion! You have sparked a little bit of interest in me now. I have read on this forum a certain quote from The Letters (quoted indeed by our good Tar-Elenion) which seems to be saying that Gandalf does not go to Valinor but instead to Eru himself and that it is Eru who sends him back. At any rate, someone sends him back:

"Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.

Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task was done." TTT

In the Sil. it is made clear that time is a thing of Ea itself. Time began when the Ainur first entered into the halls of Ea:

For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Timeless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshowing; but now they entered in at the beginning of Time, and the Valar perceived that the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it.

So, if Gandalf strayed out of thought and time, where did he go?

 

[morello13]

Lantarion, I just picked up the sil form my school's library, I;m the first on to taake it out, ever, I gues noody here really eenjoys tolkine that much. I've only firnished the preface and all but i shoul dbe starting the anuinandale today.

 

[Arvedui]

So, if Gandalf strayed out of thought and time, where did he go?

That question has been debated elsewhere on this forum:

Gandalf'sdeath in Moria - An afterthought?

And I seem to remember that it has been mentioned in another thread as well, can't remember which...

Thank you, Arvedui, for the staunch support.

You are most welcome

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

Ahhh... there is a wealth of information there! Thank you once more! I would strongly encourage each and every one of the readers in this thread to visit that link. It will enrich your understanding.

 

[Lantarion]

Hmm, interesting indeed!
Good Morello; I can't believe nobody's ever picked up the Sil from your library! Unbelievable.

Originally posted by morello13
anuinandale

Whoah, please; I know you are new to the book, but try to get at least the first title in the book correct! Haha, just kidding. But The correct spelling is Ainulindalë: ainu, meaning 'holy' and referring to the Ainur whom Ilúvatar created before anything else was made; lindalë, basically 'music', from the root lin, 'to sing'.

 

[morello13]

Lantarion,
I hope I live in a small town, but even so I hope somebody has taken out the Sil from the public library. I got it form my school's library and my shcool is pretty small, less than a 1000 kids.
How do you get those different symbols above the letters?
I've heard the Sil is pretty hard so far I've read Ainulindale, Valaquenta, and Of the Beggining Of Days, it definitely is alot deeper than the Hobit and LotR. But I am really enjoying it, escpecially the Ainulindale(I'm a musician) and being the loser that I am I took notes on the Valaquenta to piece together the realtions and power rankings of the Valar. I hope its doesn't get much more difficult and that it remains as interesting.
thanks for the engouraging words
J>