Goldberry River Daughter??

[reem]

when they say that Goldberry is the River daughter are they talking figuratively?? does bombadil call her that because he found her by the river?
reem

 

[Ithrynluin]

We'll never know what is meant for sure. Some have said that it means she is the daughter of Ossë and Uinen (Maiar of Ulmo, the water "God"), but it is not possible for two Maiar to have children.
We'll just have to take the "river daughter" literally and assume she is some kind of nature spirit.

 

[reem]

but do nature spirits EAT??! and do other stuff as well? i think it's would be more likely to assume that she's called that becuse she was first found by the river. but then the question of 'who is she and where did she come from?' comes up.
reem

 

[Lantarion]

The issue of Goldberry has been a subject of debate for almost as long as Bombadil; and so far a conclusive answer has not been found, as far as I know.
I've taken the title of "River-daughter" to be literal, in the sense that she was somehow born from the river.. But this is in direct conflict with just about everything in Tolkien's world. After all, every other character or person is categorized in some form or another: Adan, Elda, Dwarf, Hobbit, etc. (under which other categories, such as "Black Númenórean", fall under). ´The only character whose 'race' is never explicitly stated or even hinted at is Tom Bombadil, whereas some vague picture of Goldberry's heritage is given by her title.
I know think that it is more likely that she was some sort of undefined 'spirit', because Arda is (or was, rather) filled with magical and strange things; but I find it more 'realistic' that she was found by the river, and thus got her title. But where is she from then??

 

[redline2200]

I read avery interesting article on the origin of Bombadil and Goldberry that suggests that they were Aule and Yavanna incarnated.
I know you are probably thinking that that is crazy, but please read the article before you dismiss it! It can be found here:
http://www.cas.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html

It is rather long, but I promise it is well worth the time! I think that this guy has a very interesting argument...

 

[jimmyboy]

In The Adventures of Tom Bombadil it tells a bit of where Tom found Goldberry. She was said to be with her mother under (or in, I don't remember) the river, and that after a bit of struggle Tom finally won her from her mother. So if I remember correctly Goldberry was actually from out of the river, and appears to be some sort of river fairy or something like that.

 

[Glomund]

I have a question for Ithrynluin, why can't Maiar have children? if they can have children with Elves(Melian and Thingol) and elves are often said to be like the Maiar, if with less power. As for Goldberry, I think she must be a Maiar of some sort, as I also think Tom is, but we will never really know.

 

[The Tall Hobbit]

From The Adventures of Tom Bombadil:

Old Tom in summertime walked about the meadows
gathering the buttercups, running after shadows,
tickling the bumblebees that buzzed among the flowers,
sitting by the waterside for hours upon hours.

There his beard dangled long down into the water:
up came Goldberry, the River-woman's daughter;
pulled Tom's hanging hair. In he went a-wallowing
under the water-lilies, bubbling and a-swallowing.

'Hey, Tom Bombadil! Whither are you going?'
said fair Goldberry. 'Bubbles you are blowing,
frightening the finny fish and the brown water-rat,
startling the dabchicks, and drowning your feather-hat!'

'You bring it back again, there's a pretty maiden!'
said Tom Bombadil. 'I do not care for wading.
Go down! Sleep again where the pools are shady
far below willow-roots, little water-lady!'

Back to her mother's house in the deepest hollow
swam young Goldberry. But Tom, he would not follow;
on knotted willow-roots he sat in sunny weather,
drying his yellow boots and his draggled feather.

Wise old Bombadil, he was a wary fellow;
bright blue his jacket was, and his boots were yellow.
None ever caught old Tom in upland or in dingle,
walking the forest-paths, or by the Withywindle,
or out on the lily-pools in boat upon the water.
But one day Tom, he went and caught the River-daughter,
in green gown, flowing hair, sitting in the rushes,
singing old water-songs to birds upon the bushes.

He caught her, held her fast! Water-rats went scuttering
reeds hissed, herons cried, and her heart was fluttering.
Said Tom Bombadil: 'Here's my pretty maiden!
You shall come home with me! The table is all laden:
yellow cream, honeycomb, white bread and butter;
roses at the window-sill and peeping round the shutter.
You shall come under Hill! Never mind your mother
in her deep weedy pool: there you'll find no lover!'

Old Tom Bombadil had a merry wedding,
crowned all with buttercups, hat and feather shedding;
his bride with forgetmenots and flag-lilies for garland
was robed all in silver-green. He sang like a starling,
hummed like a honey-bee, lilted to the fiddle,
clasping his river-maid round her slender middle.

 

[Ancalagon]

You might want to read this debate on the subject of Goldberry. Whether you learn anything or not I cannot say, though Grond does propose a good theory of Goldberry as Maia offspring.

 

[Lantarion]

Wow, now that was what I call a debate! Well done Anc and Grond!!
And I can see how Ossë and Uinen might have conceived Goldberry; but I certainly think that it would have been in the Silmarillion, had any of the more important maiar had offspring at all. And still the River-Woman seems to remain an enigma of her own, although she could be Ossë herself.

 

[Goldberry]

Originally posted by Glomund
I have a question for Ithrynluin, why can't Maiar have children? if they can have children with Elves(Melian and Thingol) and elves are often said to be like the Maiar, if with less power. As for Goldberry, I think she must be a Maiar of some sort, as I also think Tom is, but we will never really know.

I want to know why Maiar can't have children, too! I didn't know that. Where is it from? Please Ithrynluin, won't you tell us?

 

[Ancalagon]

Actually, that is rather a good question for a separate thread, which I would suggest someone starts

 

[reem]

it would be a discussion beyong my present mental capabilities thus i would not attempt it. but you're rgiht, someone should start it
reem