Hobbits Described as Man

[JPMaximilian]

Hobbits are at times described as a "man" in LOTR and even by Tolkien himself outside the context of the books.

In FOTR I read this quote (emphasis added):

"He turned to go back, and then stopped, for he heard voices, just round the corner by the end of Bagshot Row. One voice was certainly the old Gaffer's; the other was strange; and somehow unpleasant. He could not make out what it said, but he heard the Gaffer's answers, which were rather shrill. The old man seemed put out."

Given that Gaffer means Old Man perhaps this was a nod by Tolkien to the meaning of Hamfast "Gaffer" Gamgee's nickname? That is speculation and I'm not convinced myself Tolkien would do that.

and

Here is a quote from Tolkien I'm copying from here: https://thetolkien.forum/threads/merry-and-pippins-height.19783/#post-509062

'... to this: Dwarves about 4 foot high at least. Hobbits were lighter in build, but not much shorter; their tallest men were 4 ft. but seldom taller. Though nowadays their survivors are seldom 3 feet high, in the days of the story they were taller which means that they usually exceeded 3 ft. and qualified for the name halfling. But the name halfling must have originated circa TA 1150, getting on for some 2,000 years (1868) before the War of the Ring, during which the dwindling of the Numenoreans had shown itself in stature as well as life-span. So that it referred to a height of full grown males of an average of, say, 3 ft. 5.'

However, Pippin takes exception to being called a man by Gandalf outside the Pelennor.

"'I will vouch for him before the seat of Denethor,' said Gandalf. 'And as for valour, that cannot be computed by stature. He has passed through more battles and perils than you have, Ingold, though you be twice his height; and he comes now from the storming of Isengard, of which we bear tidings, and great weariness is on him, or I would wake him. His name is Peregrin, a very valiant man.'

'Man?' said Ingold dubiously, and the others laughed.

'Man!' cried Pippin, now thoroughly roused. 'Man! Indeed not! I am a hobbit and no more valiant than I am a man, save perhaps now and again by necessity. Do not let Gandalf deceive you!'"

Perhaps the term man is contextual, and that while speaking with other Hobbits, using the term man would simply mean a male hobbit, whereas when speaking with people not familiar with Hobbits (the men of Gondor), Pippin was concerned they would think he was something other than a Hobbit?

A modern corollary would perhaps be the term "guy" where it is sometimes used even when referring to women "hey guys". Even though in a strict sense the female term would be "gal".

Or perhaps this was simply a goof or inconsistency on the part of Tolkien.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I believe Tolkien addressed this. It may be in the Letters. I'll try to find it, but may be a while.

 

[Elthir]

I bet the "Gaffer example" actually read old kuduk in the original

I know it didn't say man anyway, as that's English. Hobbits were a branch of the human race, but internally, technically not considered Men (see also the fulfilling of Glorfindel's prophecy: Eowyn was not a man, Merry was not a Man but a banakil "Halfling"), but obviously Hobbits had men (males).

SES, if it helps, you might be looking for Tolkien's PS to letter 20, or to certain exchanges with A. Ransome, published in The History of The Hobbit volume II.

🐾

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Thanks. I don't have that, but thought I read it somewhere. Maybe on line.

 

[Elthir]

I'm sorry if I was unclear. Tolkien's PS to letter 20 is in Letters.

IIRC, at least one letter to Ransome speaks to this matter, although the HOTH looks at the issue a bit more.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Oh, right. That's what I get for trying to read while filling up at a gas station.

 

[JPMaximilian]

I bet the "Gaffer example" actually read old kuduk in the original

I know it didn't say man anyway, as that's English. Hobbits were a branch of the human race, but internally, technically not considered Men (see also the fulfilling of Glorfindel's prophecy: Eowyn was not a man, Merry was not a Man but a banakil "Halfling"), but obviously Hobbits had men (males).

SES, if it helps, you might be looking for Tolkien's PS to letter 20, or to certain exchanges with A. Ransome, published in The History of The Hobbit volume II.

🐾

Let's say you are right and the original text written in westron read kuduk.

My question would then become: why was it translated to "man" from the word kuduk. I'd be interested to learn what Tolkien wrote in letter 20 as I don't have a copy of this book.

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Let's say you are right and the original text written in westron read kuduk.

My question would then become: why was it translated to "man" from the word kuduk. I'd be interested to learn what Tolkien wrote in letter 20 as I don't have a copy of this book.

Here's the text from Letter 20:

20 To C. A. Furth, Allen & Unwin
[On 17 December, Furth wrote to Tolkien: 'The demand for The Hobbit became so acute with the beginning
of the Christmas orders that we had to rush the reprint though..... At the last minute the crisis was so acute
that we fetched part of the reprint from our printers at Woking in a private car.']
19 December 1937 20 Northmoor Road, Oxford
Dear Mr Furth,
Thank you for the account of recent events with regard to 'the Hobbit'. It sounds quite exciting.
I have received four copies of the new impression charged to me, as ordered in my letter to Mr
Unwin. I think the coloured pictures have come out well... I am sorry that the Eagle picture (to face
p. 118) is not included – merely because I should have liked to see it reproduced. I marvel that four
can have been included without raising the price. Perhaps the Americans will use it? Odd folk...
I have written the first chapter of a new story about Hobbits – 'A long expected party'.1 A merry
Christmas.

Yrs sincerely
J. R. R. Tolkien.

[P.S.] .... Mr Arthur Ransome2 (2 is a superscript, which I can't get to work in my post) objects to man on p. 27 (line 7 from end). Read fellow as in earlier
recension? He also objects to more men on p. 294 l.11. Read more of us? Men with a capital is, I
think, used in text when 'human kind' are specifically intended; and man, men with a minuscule are
occasionally and loosely used as 'adult male' and 'people'. But perhaps, although this can be
mythologically defended (and is according to Anglo-Saxon usage!), it may be as well to avoid
raising mythological issues outside the story. Mr Ransome also seems not to like Gandalf's use of
boys on p. 112 (lines 11, 13). But, though I agree that his insult was rather silly and not quite up to
form, I do not think anything can be done about it now. Unless oaves would do? JRRT.

[2] 1. Tolkien wrote a poem entitled 'The Voyage of Earendel the Evening Star' in September 1914 The first stanza is
quoted in Biography p. 71.

 

[Deleted member 12094]

The examples you quoted, JPMaximilian, did not actually struck me as contradictory. I felt that the word "man" was used to indicate the difference to "woman" (in other words, an unessential indication of gender) in your 2 first examples, whereas Pippin's protest in your last example addressed a racial mix-up (hobbit <-> man). Likewise, I did not really mind other "man"-terms for hobbits such as cousins, nephews, "Widow" Rumble, and what have you.