How are Uruk-Hai made and how are they different from 🧌Orc and Goblins?

[MichaelMartinez]

Giles followed up later in the thread, and here is my reply.

Originally posted by Giles
...We're told that Higher Up (and how high?) knows quite a lot: whether from Shagrat who certainly hasn't seen any rebel Isengarders coming up the pass and getting by Shelob, only Gorbag's bunch. So it isn't likely that he is giving an order to be on the watch for Isengarders.

It isn't unlikely, either, since they do't know who is wandering about the landscape. Shagrat was not around by the time Sam and Frodo overheard the discussion between the two Orcs -- and, in any event, he didn't know who else was wandering around, either.

So, it still makes no difference whether we're talking about the tracker Orc or whomever told him to go look for something.

Sauron himself didn't know what was going on.

It is therefore erroneous to assume that the Higher Ups had any prejudices against assuming that Uruk-hai might be in the neighborhood. The conversation clearly shows that the Orcs (and their leaders) don't know who or what has made its way into Mordor.

Not quite. The tracker states that there is bad news, things are not going well, and that they've got number 1. This is the day after the battle.

This was almost a day later and concerned the defeat at the Battle of Pelennor Fields. I was responding to your original remark: "I think we can safely assume that by the 16th of March Sauron and the Nine knew the state of Isengard."

Isengard is a long way off from the Pelennor Fields. The narrative says that some of the Orcs survived and fled back to Mordor. How they could have gotten back to Minas Morgul and passed on the news of the loss so quickly is a bit of a mystery. But I see no reason (based on the text) to assume that a Nazgul plopped down in Cirith Ungol and immediately informed all the Orcs that Isengard had fallen, the Lord of the Nazgul was no more, and, oh, the Uruks from Minas Morgul are now deemed to be rebel Uruk-hai.

Sure, a haven for orc kind who serve Sauron.

Any port in a storm. Whether rebels would be "killed on the spot" is another matter entirely. I doubt they would be if that could be avoided.
However, my point stands: no one in Mordor knows who slipped in with Frodo. The Orcs sent to look for his companion were given a broad selection of possibilities.

I don't remember this quote, but I'll take it on faith.

When Aragorn leads the Fellowship out of Moria, he allows them some time to grieve, but then tells them they have to be far away by night fall.

...So on the other hand, we now have a surviving group of Isengarders going to Mordor to avenge Saruman--but wouldn't they then be trying to get Sauron?

Who knows? You're trying to argue that there would be no reason for Uruk-hai to be in Mordor. I simply suggested there could be. Neither of us can prove either supposition based on the text.

So on this story we have a group of Isengard orcs who escape the Ents and huorns,...

They don't have to escape the Ents and the Huorns. We know that Saruman had sent out companies of Uruk-hai for various purposes.

...are able to get past Sauron's armies and spies along the east bank,...

You're assuming that "rebel Uruk-hai" would be stopped. Why should they be? If simply working for someone other than Sauron makes you a "rebel", that doesn't mean you have orders to kill the rebel on sight.

Clearly, Mordor and Isengard Orcs were working together in the raid where Merry and Pippin were taken together.

Regarding my point 2:
No, my question assumes a level of consistency in a carefully constructed story.

No, your question implies many assumptions about the thinking of off-stage characters.

We don't have to assume that Sauron would suppose anything about a situation of which he was unaware.

We do know that Mordor and Isengard had cooperated, and that therefore some or perhaps even many of Sauron's Orcs knew about the relationship. Neither the Orcs nor the Nazgul would have been in a position to know whether a mission from Isengard had been sent to Minas Morgul for an undisclosed purpose.

There is no basis for connecting the events at Cirith Ungol with Sauron's direct attention. The whole of Aragorn's looking into the Palantir was to prevent Sauron from becoming aware of the incursion.

In fact, for all the Nazgul knew, Frodo was the missing Hobbit Sauron had encountered in the Palantir, and his missing companion could have been an rebel Uruk-hai guard had been sent to convey him to Mordor.

So? It doesn't matter if they had been there since the First Age began. What matters is the level of knowledge about Isengarders a low level tracker orc is supposed to have....how much intercourse did orcs from Mordor have with orcs from Isengard.

Enough that they were aware of the relationship with each other. If the tracker Orc had been well-informed, he wouldn't have been blathering about conflicting orders from Higher Ups.

I don't understand where you developed the idea that I'm equating the uruk hai with Saruman---they aren't the same thing.

No. But I cited text which showed that the Orcs of Mordor probably considered anyone outside of Mordor, who wasn't taking orders from Sauron, to be a rebel -- hence, the Uruk-hai were rebels.

It doesn't matter if at this point Saruman is now seen to be a traitor (although in that context "rebel Uruk-hai" would still be appropriate even if superfluous). So far, the reader has been given no reason to think the Uruk-hai are loyal to Sauron anyway. They are proud of their allegiance to Saruman.

I'll add another issue. The chapter in the Two Towers called Uruk Hai has more than one group of orcs in it. Fairly consistently throughout the chapter (ok, I didn't find an exception but grant that I might have missed something) TOLKIEN calls them Isengarders, not uruk hai. Only the Ugluk uses that term in that chapter and as we estbalished last summer, his references aren't conclusive by themselves.

Then you need to go back and reread that chapter very carefully.

The Uruk-hair (AND the narrative) identify ONLY the Isengarders as the Uruk-hai.

Continued in next message.

 

[MichaelMartinez]

Originally posted by Giles
That assumes that it is a boast to distinguish them from other orcs rather than to distinguish themselves as great orcs and warriors against the human rabble.

They were distinguishing themselves from other Orcs. In the chapter "The Uruk-hai", when they said this, they were taking credit for making the kill (of Boromir) that the other Orcs couldn't make.

 

[MichaelMartinez]

That concludes my reposts from SF-FANDOM, although I have certainly said (and could probably say) a great deal more on the subject.

I think, however, people are almost as tired of this topic as they are of Balrogs and wings.

 

[aragil]

Lots of excellent work, MM. I'll reply in my favorite thread, U vs U-h.

 

[Arvedui]

That concludes my reposts from SF-FANDOM, although I have certainly said (and could probably say) a great deal more on the subject.

I think, however, people are almost as tired of this topic as they are of Balrogs and wings.

There are still a few of us around who think that this topic has produced one of the greatest threads on TTF. Balrogs and wings are quite another matter.
Good posts, BTW.