How did 👁️Sauron make darkness?

[Anamatar IV]

How did Sauron make the cloud during the war ofthe ring. There werent any white trees to burn. Was it just something that came from mt, Doom when sauron ordered it to? If so why didnt sauron make it again when the wind drove it away?

 

[Maeglin]

I'm really not sure how he made the darkness, I never really thought about it. But I suppose it was just from all the smoke from the fires he used to make everything.

 

[The Tall Hobbit]

Maybe it was just clouds of smoke and ash from Mount Doom.

 

[Ceorl]

The Darkness was indeed some foul reek out of Orodruin, and was subject still to the laws of the world, whereby it can be blown back by the wind. Sauron cannot control the winds, as that is the province of Manwe alone.

 

[Lantarion]

Could I see a quote on this? I recall a 'foul cloud' of sorts in the book, but if I could see the quote itself it would help to decide whether it was natural or not.

 

[Elu Thingol]

My guess is that it was pumped from the huge machines that lay in Morder, but, your guess is as good as mine.

 

[Grond]

I think since Manwe had imposed the rule that the Istari could not directly challenge Sauron's power, Manwe would not do so either. I am convinced that Sauron was behind the storm on Caradhras as well as influencing the direction that the reek of Orodruin followed. He controlled many things and possessed many powers that are only hinted at in the books.

 

[gate7ole]

I have to disagree that the storm of Caradhras was Sauron’s action. We read:

The Ring Goes South
`I do call it the wind,' said Aragorn. `But that does not make what you say untrue. There are many evil and unfriendly things in the world that have little love for those that go on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron, but have purposes of their own. Some have been in this world longer than he.' 'Caradhras was called the Cruel, and had an ill name, said Gimli, `long years ago, when rumour of Sauron had not been heard in these lands.'

The same goes with the lake-creature near the Moria gate. I would say that the Ring itself is responsible for drawing near it the evil spirits of ME. Sauron was only taking advantage of the situation.
On the other hand, this does not go for the reek of Orodruin. Sauron was behind it.

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by gate7ole
I have to disagree that the storm of Caradhras was Sauron’s action. We read:

The same goes with the lake-creature near the Moria gate. I would say that the Ring itself is responsible for drawing near it the evil spirits of ME. Sauron was only taking advantage of the situation.
On the other hand, this does not go for the reek of Orodruin. Sauron was behind it.

Same chapter quoted about two paragraphs before...

from The Fellowship of the Ring, The Ring Goes South
'I wonder if this is a contrivance of the Enemy,' said Boromir. "They
say in my land that he can govern the storms in the Mountains of Shadow that stand upon the borders of Mordor. He has strange powers and many allies.'

'His arm has grown long indeed,' said Gimli, `if he can draw snow down
from the North to trouble us here three hundred leagues away.'

'His arm has grown long,' said Gandalf.

I tend to trust Gandalf on the matter.

 

[Lantarion]

You mean that Sauron's arm has grown long??
The most vivid vision of such dark clouds that I get from the book is when Merry and gandalf are viewing the darkness outside, and when somebody else (was it Aragorn?) isviewing fast-moving and pitch-black clouds from the Houses of Healing.. That really makes it seem like Sauron is actually summoning this cloud to intimidate and confuse the population.
But let's be sensible and rational here (as far as we can, when dealing with a fantasy novel). Sauron was a Maia, right? And as far as I know, Maiar cannot control the weather as such, and cannot 'summon' spirits or ghosts or anything like that, right? Because if he could, why didn't Sauron do that?! Summon spirits of dread and fear to fist distract the minds of his enemies, and then attack and overwhelm them?
But as we see, eg. Galadriel has the power to manipulate water (ie. the Mirror, supposedly the Phial..), so perhaps Sauron could control the evaporating and condensating water molecules in the clouds.. But how could he gain 'access' to them, and how does he turn the clouds black?! I think it's a bit far-fetched to say that Sauron just raised his arms and sent a huge, billowing black cloud surfing the skies to scare people, excuse me.
The possibility of some sort of dispicable industrial machine pumping the black smoke out is an option, but how would the cloud be so dense, and how could it possibly move and still retain its condense form? Hmm..

Now, am I underestimating Sauron's powers, or are most of you overestimating them?!

 

[Grond]

Gimli states, "His arm has grown long indeed if he can draw snow down from the North to trouble us here three hundred leagues away."

Gandalf flatly states, "His arm has grown long,"

That is clearly an absolute affirmation of Gimli's statement by Gandalf. It clearly illustrates that Gandalf was certain in his own mind that Sauron was responsible for the storm. That doesn't make Gandalf right... but as I said earlier, I tend to trust Gandalf's opinions on most things. He's wrong occasionally but right most of the time.

 

[Leto]

far-fetched? This is a fantasy world, not much is 'far fetched'. Sauron is the most powerful evil spirit in the world. He can create evil black clouds which block out the sun to follow his armies (who don't like the sun anyways). When the armies are defeated, his immediate focus and power is withdrawn from that area, and the black clouds are blown away. This is not such a big deal, people. It is really more symbolic that a functional part of the story. The black cloud, Sauron's power and will, spreading out of Mordor, turning day into night. As the powers of the west fight back, there is a break in the clouds, and the sun shines through. At the final victory, a great wind out of the north blows away the foul blackness once and for all.

 

[Ceorl]

Hmm Leto, I am afraid that you will find that nothing happened in JRRT's world without there being a reason for it; And Sauron is not the most powerful spirit either; Morgoth is, and he has been banished. Yet Sauron is only a servant to Morgoth and his power not nearly as great (though great it is).

In the matter of the clouds, I cannot find it, but I seem to remember a passage by one of the men of Gondor (probably Beregond) who made some kind of passing comment on the fould reek coming from Orodruin, although I probably read it wrong, knowing me.

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by Ceorl
...In the matter of the clouds, I cannot find it, but I seem to remember a passage by one of the men of Gondor (probably Beregond) who made some kind of passing comment on the fould reek coming from Orodruin, although I probably read it wrong, knowing me.

I completely concur that the reek of Gondor came from Orodruin. It was caused and directed by Sauron IMHO. The issue is this..."can Sauron cause a storm on Caradhras?" I think Gandalf (from his quote) thought he could. And since Gandalf is a Maia, I would think he would know.

 

[JanitorofAngmar]

How did Sauron make darkness???

Hmmm, let me think for a minute....

How about a freakin "light switch??"

"light goes on, light goes off, light goes on, light goes off!"

Weeeeeeeee

I make darkness every night,
Therefore I must be Sauron!

All kneel before me and fear my wrath!

Please?

Sorry...too much coffee....

*ahem*

He just did. That's how.

 

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Grond
Gimli states, "His arm has grown long indeed if he can draw snow down from the North to trouble us here three hundred leagues away."

Gandalf flatly states, "His arm has grown long,"

That is clearly an absolute affirmation of Gimli's statement by Gandalf. It clearly illustrates that Gandalf was certain in his own mind that Sauron was responsible for the storm. That doesn't make Gandalf right... but as I said earlier, I tend to trust Gandalf's opinions on most things. He's wrong occasionally but right most of the time.

Actually, Grond, I read this to mean that Gandalf is pretty much saying, "Yeah, Sauron could manage this if he wished."

But I don't read it as an unequivocal: "Bingo -- you got it."

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by Tyaronumen
Actually, Grond, I read this to mean that Gandalf is pretty much saying, "Yeah, Sauron could manage this if he wished."

But I don't read it as an unequivocal: "Bingo -- you got it."

And I read it as Gandalf saying, "I think Sauron did it!" Different persepectives having differing opinions. That's what is so great about this forum. I can disagree (ever so slightly) with you and still love you. In case I haven't said it lately to one and all... "I LOVE YOU GUYS AND GALS"... and you too Yaygollum!!

 

[Leto]

whether clouds came from orodruin, from machines, or just out of nowhere, created by magic...Sauron did it. He is the most powerful evil spirit in Middle Earth, Melkor has been banished. Nothing happened without a reason, but the reasons need not be laboured over so anally. Sauron is a powerful evil spirit that can use 'magic', whatever we think that means in the context of Tolkien's world. Dark ominous clouds of evil blackness which cover the sun are not beyond his abilities. Gandalf uses magic of light, and fire. But his power is veiled, only used to survive, and help out those in immediate need...he doesn't contest Sauron openly. If he did, or could, he might have summoned up a great burning light which could scorch the armies of Sauron, and melt away the foul reek from Mordor. Why not? My point was, people are making too big a deal of trying to explain the darkness, and whether it was Sauron's or not. Of course it was Sauron's doing, that's why it came out of Mordor, and blew away after the army had been defeated. How did he do it? Is not an important question, to the story, or in Tolkien's eyes, obviously. Saruman had a cover of darkness for his armies, as well...remember when Legolas was trying to see ahead, but he could only see shapes moving within an unnatural darkness his eyes couldn't pierce? It just so happened that they reached Helm's Deep at night, so the magical darkness didn't matter anymore. But I digress. Sauron, Saruman, and Gandalf have otherworldy powers, 'magic', and can manipulate forces of nature, etc, that others cannot. How did Saruman create the Uruk Hai? All we know from the book is, they suppose he bred orcs and men together somehow. How did the elves make the rings of power, and how did Sauron make the one? How does a creature breath fire, and how does the Witch King make fire run down his sword? How do the palantiri work? How does a ship sail beyond the circles of the world? Magic. It abounds in Tolkien's world, and that is all the explanation we need. It's magic.

 

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Grond
And I read it as Gandalf saying, "I think Sauron did it!" Different persepectives having differing opinions.

I agree that under different perspectives a completely different meaning is derived. But still Aragorn says explicitely that Caradhras works by itself while Gandalf only implies that maybe Sauron is responsible. I'll trust Aragorn's certainty than Gandalf's speculation.
Also, even explaining Caradhras as an action of Sauron, there were many other evil creatures not controlled by Sauron but by themselves. To name a few: Old Man Willow, lake creature, Barrow-wights.
The only definite is that every evil comes from Morgoth.

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by gate7ole
I agree that under different perspectives a completely different meaning is derived. But still Aragorn says explicitely that Caradhras works by itself while Gandalf only implies that maybe Sauron is responsible. I'll trust Aragorn's certainty than Gandalf's speculation.
Also, even explaining Caradhras as an action of Sauron, there were many other evil creatures not controlled by Sauron but by themselves. To name a few: Old Man Willow, lake creature, Barrow-wights.
The only definite is that every evil comes from Morgoth.

Actually, the awakening of the barrow-wights is attributible to a visit to the Barrow-downs by the Old Witch-king of Angmar as he heads for the Shire. That used to be his realm and in HoMe, Tolkien attributes the activity of the Barrow-wights to Sauron vis a vis the Lord of the Nazgul.

Tolkien also states that the Balrog (though not controlled by) was likely awakened by Sauron's ever increasing power.

from The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A
Thus they roused from sleep41 a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundation to the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth. Durin was slain by it, and the year after Náin I, his son; and then the glory of Moria passed, and its people were destroyed of fled far away.

41 Or released it from prison; it may well be that it had already been awakened by the malice of Sauron.

The other things you speak of would surely have responded to the second greatest evil of the world... Gorthaur the Cruel called Sauron.

from The Silmarillion, Valaquenta, Of the Enemies
Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.

Make no mistake about it, Sauron was one bad dude!!!