How did 👁️Sauron's misjudgments affect his campaign?

[Ent]

The first time was with the sinking of Númenor

Doh. Thanks..!!

 

[Ent]

Sauron had a lack of faith in the Valar. The time when he tells Eönwë that he is considering repentance, he rejects the request that he return to Valinor and submit to their judgment...

In my view, his lack of 'faith' in the Valar is a good thing, as his faith should be in Eru. Had he that, his submission to the judgment of the Valar would follow, as they are servants of Eru, their faith in Eru. and their works (judgment) an outflow of Eru's 'grace.'

If his faith were in the Valar themselves, it would be as misplaced as was Sauron's faith in him... also a Vala.

I believe his rejection to return was a rejection of the repentance itself, he not seeing he had done anything wrong, still entirely given over to "self" and his own 'godhood' (that is, lust for it). Again, I see the refusal to repent as a decision regarding where he wanted to place his faith... "self, thank you very much".

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

In my view, his lack of 'faith' in the Valar is a good thing, as his faith should be in Eru. Had he that, his submission to the judgment of the Valar would follow.
If his faith were in the Valar themselves, it would be as misplaced as was Sauron's faith in him... also a Vala.

Oh, very good point! If he had submitted to God, or Eru, first, he would have been ready to return. Even if he had started with asking genuinely for repentance, when he heard what the next step he had to take was, he decided his pride wouldn't let him do that, showing his lack of faith in Eru. Consequently, it was a diffusing effect to everything he did after that.

I believe his rejection to return was a rejection of the repentance itself, he not seeing he had done anything wrong, still entirely given over to "self" and his own 'godhood' (that is, lust for it). Again, I see the refusal to repent as a decision regarding where he wanted to place his faith... "self, thank you very much".

Yes, I agree that would be in a way a kind of a final rejection to "come home", if you will.

 

[Ent]

Yes, I agree that would be in a way a kind of a final rejection to "come home", if you will.

Yes... it's all about Eru's giving "space to repent". Multiple times. Until it's the final "time" such "space" is granted. Such as Gandalf's appeal to Saruman the final time at Orthanc. Saruman's final struggle and choice, he 'knowing' in a way it was the last time, would be the 'searing of conscience' for him, after which he would no longer even consider the offer... and after which no other offer would ever be made.

(We keep digging deeper here... 😁 the progression Tolkien is following with all this is all Scripturally based. He's subtle, but he gets it all in there... and more! And as he said often he didn't even realize it was happening until after he'd written it.)

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

Yes... it's all about Eru's giving "space to repent". Multiple times. Until it's the final "time" such "space" is granted. Such as Gandalf's appeal to Saruman the final time at Orthanc. Saruman's final struggle and choice, he 'knowing' in a way it was the last time, would be the 'searing of conscience' for him, after which he would no longer even consider the offer... and after which no other offer would ever be made.

(We keep digging deeper here... 😁 the progression Tolkien is following with all this is all Scripturally based. He's subtle, but he gets it all in there... and more! And as he said often he didn't even realize it was happening until after he'd written it.)

Right! And even Frodo offers a chance outside of Bag End to Wormtongue that he "need not follow [Saruman]". Frodo also spares Saruman's life when Saruman attacks him, giving him mercy that which Saruman could never understand. Saruman says that he "would have to go bitter and in debt to [Frodo's] mercy". And that was his loss. The little passage there about him dying and "looking to the West", and a "cold wind" blew him back, dissolving his spirit. It was quite the warning. And quite sad, as well.

 

[Ent]

he little passage there about him dying and "looking to the West", and a "cold wind blew"

Worthy of printing...

"To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing. Frodo looked down at the body with pity and horror, for as he looked it seemed that long years of death were suddenly revealed in it, and it shrank, and the shrivelled face became rags of skin upon a hideous skull."

Was it real? he may have been thinking.
Was it true?
Was there no way 'back home'? Saruman was asking, in that longing moment where he in his final form looked to the West....in hope.
But his choice had been made long ago, and he had actually 'died' long years ago, when he turned his back on Eru.
The opportunities for rebirth had been given. They had been entertained. And they had been rejected. So death remained.
It was not the warm and comforting wind of acceptance or even understanding, blowing him away from what he could have had.
It was the cold wind of justice - his just reward for his choices.
With a sigh he resigned himself to his chosen fate. At last, though without hope, he understood.
For him the West is closed.

 

[1stvermont]

Yes... it's all about Eru's giving "space to repent". Multiple times. Until it's the final "time" such "space" is granted. Such as Gandalf's appeal to Saruman the final time at Orthanc. Saruman's final struggle and choice, he 'knowing' in a way it was the last time, would be the 'searing of conscience' for him, after which he would no longer even consider the offer... and after which no other offer would ever be made.

(We keep digging deeper here... 😁 the progression Tolkien is following with all this is all Scripturally based. He's subtle, but he gets it all in there... and more! And as he said often he didn't even realize it was happening until after he'd written it.)

Like Pharaoh hardening his own heart one to many times.....then God did! At some point forgiveness is no longer available, you have made your choice!

 

[Aldarion]

All too true on this part. Though I don't understand 'getting his body destroyed a 2nd time" in connection with the Last Alliance. Wasn't that the first time his body was destroyed?

As said, the first time was the sinking of Numenor. After the fall of Numenor he also lost the ability to shapeshift, as he had to reconstruct his body with the help of the One Ring.

 

[ZehnWaters]

Well, sure, but I can't help but think this bit could have been developed more by Tolkien. It comes off as a bit weak to me.

Which is fine. Some parts of The Silmarillion are underdeveloped.

 

[Radaghast]

Which is fine. Some parts of The Silmarillion are underdeveloped.

I agree, although I think "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" was perhaps written mostly for Tolkien's own benefit, and just tacked onto the end of The Silmarillion at publication. In any case, it wouldn't have taken much to say that Sauron simply escaped Eönwë's custody. As it stands, it makes Eönwë look like a naif. But, if I'm correct and Tolkien never really intended for anyone to read it, I guess it doesn't really matter.

 

[ZehnWaters]

It goes back to my statement on Gollum, who followed, enticed, after his own desires... and those desires fully grown... gave forth to death of him and the Ring. Gollum thought he was moving for his own gain, but his choices that he made yet moved within the Great Music! Pretty incredible and powerful.

Your quote reminds me of how the argument that Melkor caused all kinds of suffering. Yet despite that, we see even greater beauty because of it. See the long-suffering and perserverance of Lúthien and Beren. Or the devotion of Elwing and Eärendil. Neither would have happened without trials.

Doesn't matter. If he had done differently for any - or all - of those things, something else would have happened to see him fall. You might say it was meant to be. "Providence" - or "Eru" - or "God" - would have pulled the right strings to see it through.

Also valid.

 

[ZehnWaters]

I agree, although I think "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" was perhaps written mostly for Tolkien's own benefit, and just tacked onto the end of The Silmarillion at publication. In any case, it wouldn't have taken much to say that Sauron simply escaped Eönwë's custody. As it stands, it makes Eönwë look like a naif. But, if I'm correct and Tolkien never really intended for anyone to read it, it'll do, I guess.

To be fair, the Valar don't look any better when they blithely let Melkor free with no restraints to tempt the Noldor. The Ainur seem woefully naive at times.

 

[ZehnWaters]

Oh, very good point! If he had submitted to God, or Eru, first, he would have been ready to return. Even if he had started with asking genuinely for repentance, when he heard what the next step he had to take was, he decided his pride wouldn't let him do that, showing his lack of faith in Eru. Consequently, it was a diffusing effect to everything he did after that.


Yes, I agree that would be in a way a kind of a final rejection to "come home", if you will.

One could say that Pride was his greatest flaw. Pride in his own thoughts (such that he couldn't conceive that others would think differently than him). Pride in his own authority (such that he wouldn't submit to the authority delegated by Eru to the Valar).

 

[Radaghast]

"Pride goeth before the fall."

 

[ZehnWaters]

"Pride goeth before the fall."

Literally, in Sauron's case.

 

[Ent]

One could say that Pride was his greatest flaw. Pride in his own thoughts (such that he couldn't conceive that others would think differently than him). Pride in his own authority (such that he wouldn't submit to the authority delegated by Eru to the Valar).

One could say that. Pride is always the (a) problem.
But as noted elsewhere, Pride is but one of the 'sins courching at the door wanting to have the rule over us, but we must overcome it.'

That's why I say the greatest flaw wasn't the Pride... it's but a symptom of evil.
The flaw was the Choice... the decision to put his Faith in himself... that was his flaw.

Had he chosen aright, pride would have been conquered and meaningless, having been defeated.

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

one of the 'sins courching at the door wanting to have the rule over us, but we must overcome it.'

Tolkien shows that in his works in so many ways! This is maximized by the 'greatness' of the one Eru created. The greater one is, the greater the fall can be... Morgoth, Sauron, Saruman... and so on. Fëanor, the greatest of the Elves ever created by Eru, is another example. What started out as a fight against evil turned into a devastating war that the effects of could still be felt long after he departed.
It reminds of a passage from the Book of Books: "To him who is given little, of him little is expected, and to him who is given much, of him much is expected." We ought to be all the more careful if we are of those who are "given much". (But those who are "given little" can't relax just so simply... be vigilant!)

 

[ZehnWaters]

Fëanor, the greatest of the Elves ever created by Eru, is another example.

Hm. I suppose Lúthien is considered a human in the end. Was she half-elf before? She was certainly greater than Fëanor. She overcame Morgoth, goodness sake'. One could also argue Galadriel ended up more powerful than him, or accomplished more. Not the least of which being her lifespan and lack of death. The only one who can claim the latter in her family being her father and half-cousin, Maglor. (Potentially her aunts, though it's unsure if they exist or not.)

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

Hm. I suppose Lúthien is considered a human in the end. Was she half-elf before? She was certainly greater than Fëanor. She overcame Morgoth, goodness sake'. One could also argue Galadriel ended up more powerful than him, or accomplished more. Not the least of which being her lifespan and lack of death. The only one who can claim the latter in her family being her father and half-cousin, Maglor. (Potentially her aunts, though it's unsure if they exist or not.)

It says in the books Fëanor was the greatest. So I go with Tolkien. Sure, she was half-Elf and half-Maiar, but still. Fëanor was the height of the Elves.

 

[ZehnWaters]

It says in the books Fëanor was the greatest. So I go with Tolkien. Sure, she was half-Elf and half-Maiar, but still. Fëanor was the height of the Elves.

Tolkien wasn't really consistent on who was greater. He often called Fëanor the greatest and yet:
"Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years."

So I guess it's a "maybe" and dependent on what one calls "great". If she's wiser than him, is he really "greater"?