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How fast is 🐴Shadowfax?

Radaghast

Well-Known Member
Joined
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Messages
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A question on Quora led me to wonder what the top speed of Shadowfax is. An Internet search turned up an estimate on stackexchange.com of 150 mph, which seems a very high estimate (and I don't understand how it was obtained). Gandalf rides from Isengard to Minas Tirith, a distance of 440 miles (if I'm not mistaken) in four days, with I think one stop. If Shadowfax could run at 150 mph, he could make that trip in less than four hours, not four days.

Anyway, anybody have any insight?
 
However.... Twilight (evening or morning) lasts longer than 1/2 hour on each "side", at least where I live...it's more like an hour each side which would only leave 10 hours of riding time per night.
An hour each side is "Nautical twilight" a half hour each side is "Civil twilight".
It's still pretty light at Civil twilight. If Gandalf doesn't want to be seen he should wait until an hour past sunset before he starts riding 😄
I wasn't sure of that. We live at about 49.5° north latitude, which is a tad north of Vancouver, Canada. Our view of the horizon as one would be able to see it over water is somewhat restricted by trees and buildings both east and west, so we can only guess at "true" sunrise or sunset.

But if I take 10 hours of night riding for a total of 30 hours, that ups Shadowfax's average speed to 12-13 mph, or about 20 kph. That's moving for a distance of 350 miles (or 563 kilometers)!
(However, we have, I trust, established that Shadowfax does not run at 150 mph)
For ourselves, yes. I would hesitate to bet against "yes, but ..." replies from the Quora etc crowd ... :rolleyes:
 
One of the responses in that stackexchange thread, which I find kind of amusing:

With all due respect, as an equestrian, all this speculation makes me cringe. Even a "magical" horse like Shadowfax has bio-mechanical limitations. 100mph for a horse? Over long distance? Not b***y likely. Then again, Tolkien, like far too many authors, had apparently little knowledge of horses. I highly recommend reading about the Somewhere an Equestrian is crying trope. I cry a lot when I read about or see horses portrayed in literature and film. :(
– Marakai
May 30, 2016 at 3:49

I'm not sure why the knock on Tolkien since it seems he did account for such limitations. It doesn't seem as if this person even looked through that thread.
 
New Book: THE TWISTING OF THE UNICORN: by Sauron

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Shadowfax doesn't run at all. He causes the world to move in the opposite direction beneath his hooves.

"As he fell slowly into sleep, Pippin had a strange feeling: he and Gandalf were still as stone, seated upon the statue of a running horse, while the world rolled away beneath his feet with a great noise of wind."

--one of my favorite lines from the story.
 
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I wasn't sure of that. We live at about 49.5° north latitude, which is a tad north of Vancouver, Canada. Our view of the horizon as one would be able to see it over water is somewhat restricted by trees and buildings both east and west, so we can only guess at "true" sunrise or sunset.

But if I take 10 hours of night riding for a total of 30 hours, that ups Shadowfax's average speed to 12-13 mph, or about 20 kph. That's moving for a distance of 350 miles (or 563 kilometers)!

For ourselves, yes. I would hesitate to bet against "yes, but ..." replies from the Quora etc crowd ... :rolleyes:
Yes, once I caught on that they weren't riding during the day (duh!) and adjusted for twilight start and stop times, I saw the 30 or so hours for 350 miles. No wonder he was "in a lather" when they finally got to Minas Tiras. And Gandalf likely paced him at different gaits.
Or Shadowfax (being rather bright as horses go) paced himself.
 
One of the responses in that stackexchange thread, which I find kind of amusing:
Then again, Tolkien, like far too many authors, had apparently little knowledge of horses.
I'm not sure why the knock on Tolkien since it seems he did account for such limitations. It doesn't seem as if this person even looked through that thread.
Case of shooting yourself in the foot with a machine gun.
To quote John Garth in his 2003 "Tolkien and the Great War" (page 24 in my paperback):

"Tolkien was embarking {in 1911} on life at Exeter College, Oxford, where, in step with his generation, he pursued military training. As soon as he arrived he enrolled in King Edward's Horse ...
Tolkien had a strong affinity for horses, which he loved, and is said to have become a de-facto breaker-in; no sooner had he broken one horse in but it was taken away; another would then be given to him and he had to start the process again."

Humphrey Carpenter, in his 1977 "Biography", only fleetingly mentions King Edward's Horse (page 66 of my paperback), noting that JRRT resigned from the regiment some months after a 14-day camp (wet and windy) in the summer of 1912.

Well, Garth's book was published 20 years ago ... :rolleyes:
 
Case of shooting yourself in the foot with a machine gun.
To quote John Garth in his 2003 "Tolkien and the Great War" (page 24 in my paperback):

"Tolkien was embarking {in 1911} on life at Exeter College, Oxford, where, in step with his generation, he pursued military training. As soon as he arrived he enrolled in King Edward's Horse ...
Tolkien had a strong affinity for horses, which he loved, and is said to have become a de-facto breaker-in; no sooner had he broken one horse in but it was taken away; another would then be given to him and he had to start the process again."

Humphrey Carpenter, in his 1977 "Biography", only fleetingly mentions King Edward's Horse (page 66 of my paperback), noting that JRRT resigned from the regiment some months after a 14-day camp (wet and windy) in the summer of 1912.

Well, Garth's book was published 20 years ago ... :rolleyes:
Never let the facts get in the way of preconceived notions. 🙄😄
 
Interesting discussion. Not to be dismissive of all the calculations concerning what a "horse" is capable of, but a couple of elements should be kept in mind:

Shadowfax is one of the mearas, held by the Northmen and the later Rohirrim to be descended from Nahar, the steed of Orome. Whether Nahar was born in Valinor is unclear, but he did go there, and beheld the light of the Two Trees, with all that implies. An echo of that is seen in the effect of Bill the pony's stay in Rivendell, as recognized by Sam: 'That animal can nearly talk,' he said, 'and would talk, if he stayed here much longer.'
Presumably this could be from spending time around those Elves who had also seen the light of the Trees. Bill's almost miraculous escape from the wolves and wargs in Wilderland can be attributed to this same effect.

Further, Shadowfax is recognized by all as a kind of "throwback' -- an avatar, as it were, of the original, whose blood runs true. As Gandalf says: 'And there is one among them that might have been foaled in the morning of the world . The horses of the Nine cannot vie with him; tireless, swift as the flowing wind.'
This idea of "true blood" returning, and its associated imagery, is paralleled in Faramir, and of course Aragorn.

Second, we have to keep in mind the mode of literature we're reading: LOTR is a romance. As Northop Frye puts it:
The hero of romance moves in a world in which the ordinary laws of nature are slightly suspended: prodigies of courage and endurance, unnatural to us, are natural to him, and enchanted weapons, talking animals, terrifying ogres and witches, and talismans of miraculous power violate no rule of probability once the postulates of romance have been established.
The parallels between Shadowfax -- who could be seen as a "hero", in a way -- and Aragorn can be seen here:
Wide wonder came into Eomer's eyes. 'Strider is too poor a name, son of Arathorn,' he said. 'Wingfoot I name you. This deed of the three friends should be sung in many a hall. Forty leagues and five you have measured ere the fourth day is ended! Hardy is the race of Elendil!'
 
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Interesting discussion. Not to be dismissive of all the calculations concerning what a "horse" is capable of, but a couple of elements should be kept in mind:

Shadowfax is one of the mearas, held by the Northmen and the later Rohirrim to be descended from Nahar, the steed of Orome. Whether Nahar was born in Valinor is unclear, but he did go there, and beheld the light of the Two Trees, with all that implies. An echo of that is seen in the effect of Bill the pony's stay in Rivendell, as recognized by Sam: 'That animal can nearly talk,' he said, 'and would talk, if he stayed here much longer.'
Presumably this could be from spending time around those Elves who had also seen the light of the Trees. Bill's almost miraculous escape from the wolves and wargs in Wilderland can be attributed to this same effect.

Further, Shadowfax is recognized by all as a kind of "throwback' -- an avatar, as it were, of the original, whose blood runs true. As Gandalf says: 'And there is one among them that might have been foaled in the morning of the world . The horses of the Nine cannot vie with him; tireless, swift as the flowing wind.'
This idea of "true blood" returning, and its associated imagery, is paralleled in Faramir, and of course Aragorn.

Second, we have to keep in mind the mode of literature we're reading: LOTR is a romance. As Northop Frye puts it:

The parallels between Shadowfax -- who could be seen as a "hero", in a way -- and Aragorn can be seen here:
Well, OK... (but 150 mph????🙄)
 
Second, we have to keep in mind the mode of literature we're reading: LOTR is a romance. As Northop Frye puts it:
OK, let's compare it to the 18-month existence of the US's Pony Express (April 1860 - October 1861).
The distance from St. Joseph, Missouri, to Sacramento, California, was about 1,900 miles. Covered in 10 days, that meant 190 miles a day ...
But the article in Wikipedia has almost as many inconsistencies as HoMe ... 😳

"In 1860, the roughly 186 Pony Express stations were about 10 to 15 miles (16 to 24 km) apart along the Pony Express route. At each station, the express rider would change to a fresh horse, get a bite to eat, and would only take the mail pouch called a mochila (from the Spanish for pouch or backpack) with him."

"Along the long and arduous route used by the Pony Express, 190 stations were used. To maintain the rigid schedule, 157 relay stations were located from 5 to 25 miles (8 to 40 km) apart, as the terrain would allow. At each "swing station", riders would exchange their tired mounts for fresh ones, while "home stations" provided room and board for the riders between runs. This technique allowed the mail to be moved across the continent in record time. Each rider rode about 75 miles (120 km) per day."

So it appears the riders changed horses on average every 10 miles. For Gandalf's ride, this would have meant 34 changes of horse ...
Then there is the bit about every rider covering about 75 miles a day. To reach the required 190 miles per day, they would have needed about 5 riders per 2 days.

Ah, there's another quote belonging to the first one above:
"Riders, who could not weigh over 125 pounds (57 kg), changed about every 75–100 miles (120–160 km), and rode day and night."

Meaning that the 380 miles (average) covered in 2 days by 5 riders were achieved in 48 hours, or at an average of 7.9 mph ...
The parallels between Shadowfax -- who could be seen as a "hero", in a way -- and Aragorn can be seen here:
OK, so for the sake of argument let's assume Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli covered those 3 x 45 leagues = 135 miles in the same time that Shadowfax ran the 350 miles. Or 2.6 times as far. Now there have sporadically been races between ultra-distance runners (we're talking multiple-marathon distances here) and horses (with riders, obviously; no horse on its own would voluntarily do something so utterly Homo-sapiens-daffy!). The horses did not win every race, far from it. The Incas, like all natives of the (to Europeans) "New World", had message runners that covered huge distances in the mostly mountainous terrain of their empire. Even Aragorn as a Ranger might not have been able to match these highly trained professional runners. Legolas is an entirely different matter. Perhaps Gimli with his short legs was the limiting factor- but then the stamina of the Dwarves is thought to be seriously more than that of the average human.

Anyway, considering both Aragorn and Shadowfax as "romance heroes", Shadowfax does mop the floor with Aragorn with what is known today.
 
Even Aragorn as a Ranger might not have been able to match these highly trained professional runners. Legolas is an entirely different matter. Perhaps Gimli with his short legs was the limiting factor- but then the stamina of the Dwarves is thought to be seriously more than that of the average human.
I must say that applying real world mathematics to the Middle-Earth races seems a bit of a challenge, especially because Tolkien did not give us a speed for each race, and as we know from reality, all people run differently to a certain degree. Still, I applaud you for trying to decipher it.
 
OK, let's compare it to the 18-month existence of the US's Pony Express (April 1860 - October 1861).
....

Anyway, considering both Aragorn and Shadowfax as "romance heroes", Shadowfax does mop the floor with Aragorn with what is known today.
Funny you should mention the Pony Express.
I thought of it yesterday and was going to look into the particulars (distance, number of horses used, etc) but simply didn't get around to doing it.
But, as a good friend liked to say "great minds think alike" 😁😉
 

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