How much do you ❤️ Fëanor?

Thorondor_ said:

Afraid of Feanor? That's a good one... it still doesn't make it clear whether you despise him or admire him

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Hehe...I actually don't mean it that way. I mean something along the lines of homophobic... (IOW hostile towards Fëanor) Clear enough, now?

Feanor is truly an example of a person with too much pride. He'd be better as a smith than the leader of the Noldor. Look at the evil things he had done, the kinslaying at the top of the list. Than there was the betrayal when he reached Middle-earth, the burning of the ships. There was also the refusal of giving the Silmarils to the Valar, when, the light of the Silmarils, without which the Silmarils would seem normal, were truly the Valar's. There were some good traits in him. It was given that he loved his father more than anything, counting the Silmarils. But those traits do not overpower his evil deeds. I say that had he gotten hold of The One Ring, he would have turned into a dark lord greater than Morgoth or Sauron.

I gave him a two.

He has as much creative qualities as leadership qualities, remember how he stirred the hearts of the elves several times, and he is sure to inspire his warriors in battle, tho he is too hasty - this and his pride are his major faults. And I don't agree the light of the Silmarils belong to the valar, more likely to Eru; moreover, no one knows the nature of the Silmarils. And saying that he would become a dark lord even greater that Morgoth or Sauron doesn' do honor to him - he is not intent on doing harm to others and for harm's sake (tho he has his pride and hastiness issues); and his power could never match the one of Melkor/Sauron. He, as a dark lord, could be greater than them in the sense of his creative power, but nothing more.

ingolmo said:

I say that had he gotten hold of The One Ring, he would have turned into a dark lord greater than Morgoth or Sauron.

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I think this is an immense exaggeration. To begin with, Fëanor was still 'only' an Elf, regardless of his great creative powers and commanding stature. Secondly, Sauron's ring contained a great part of Sauron's power, so whoever learned to wield it and whoever had great native power of their own, could've become as great as Sauron himself. That said, Sauron was still a being of considerably less stature, so there is not much sense in comparing Fëanor to Morgoth.

I think Feanor is great for making the silmarils, but for crying out loud, he battled with other elves and defied the authority of the Valar, who were obviously smarter and wiser than he! If you don't agree with me, let's see Feanor make Arda or Dwarves or elves. Sorry about the outburst, I just feel that Feanor was a smart fool. My vote is 3. He's lucky to get that.

TE13

I think that if he had the power he would do a great job at "creating" Arda. Moreover, none of the valar had his knowledge to make a silmaril.

I do not think so, as much as I love Feanor, he is the most "Morgoth like" of all the Noldorin princes, and perhaps of the Eldar, though he is still my favourite Elf, he would not be a good choice for the creator of Arda. And from where did the lights of the Silmarils come from?

He is a great smith, he created the Silmarils, he was the leader of the elves and he went to Middle earth to fight agains Morgoth. He is really great but too much fair people die because of his wrath. Fingolfin was slain by Melkor, Turgon also die, so much Edain were killed by the servant of the Enemy. Why? Because Fëanor wanted to recover the Silmaril without any help. The results are the death of many faiir creatures.

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You think so? If it wasn't for the Noldor (and therefore Feanor) Middle-Earth would have been ravaged, and Men would not have been raised to the stature to which they were raised after they met the Eldar, and there would have been no Edain. (It also brang about the union of Elves and Men via Idril and Luthien.)

And from where did the lights of the Silmarils come from?

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True, the trees were sang into existence by Yavanna's power, but I said "if" he had the power. If he had the power of the valar, then, considering his exceptional creative skills, he would do things that, imo, would exceed in beauty and usefulness anything created by the valar - Aule included.

I have sympathy for Feanor but he was a horribly selfish and cruel person. I admire his skill, guts and his passion to a 10, but do I love him? Nope.

Being skilled and powerful doesn't redeem somebody in my opinion. A good mind doesn't make up for a bad heart.

I may vote for 2 or 3, but this scale is too linear to measure the complexity of opinion of Feanor unless you are a 1 or 10.

Thorondor-I do not think so-Melkor was, besides Eru, the most powerful being in Arda, and had the potential for creating and inventing (Manwë was to continue his plans) yet he fell into evil. Remember at first Melkor thought he was going to bring beauty and usefulness to the world, but he wanted to coerce others into doing his bidding, thinking things would only work well if he was master-, such was Fëanor’s character, or rather, such was Fëanor’s character in his latter days. (He had a potential greater than any other incarnate, he was potentially the most powerful, with the possible exception of Lúthien, though she was half-Ainu.) Same goes for Sauron and Saruman.
Though that being said, Fëanor was a rather tragic character, and who knows how he would have turned out of Miriel had lived?

Beleg said:

You are crazy for not liking Turin because he was loved by the amazingly hot Finduilas the Great.

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Haha, for some reason I too have an image of Finduilas being very hot XD Dunno if it's becouse of her personality or what...

Too bad there wasn't a handsome maia daughter around Valinor at that time . And yes, his pride and possesiveness are rather incompatible with a world creator. The valar had the strength to stop fighting Melkor when they saw that this could spell the doom of Ambar - and they are to be lauded for that. If Feanor would see his creations destroyed by Melkor - he would no doubt stop at nothing in his revenge.

As for Finduilas, my opinion of her is not overly-great, not because she stopped loving Gwindor and loved Túrin, certainly we cannot blame her for that (And Turin loved her too, but it was not to be) but because one of the reasons which Tolkien hints at as to Finduilas's "change of heart"-that Gwindor had grown old under Angband, and possibly uglier, though perhaps he had grown more grim than he formerly was, and perhaps this too played a part in her change of heart. Fëanor in the least was not superficial, as Nerdanel was not overly-beautiful.

Feanor gets a 9 from me - if not for the Kinslaying he'd have gotten a 10. All the reasons are valid - to sum it up, Feanor had the courage to defy and the courage to risk, all for the Silmarils and for the defeat of Morgoth. Feanor even gave Melkor that snappy name.

I've always liked Feanor a great deal, and his charge against the Balrogs that led to his demise was one of the most heroic events, to me at least, of the book (at least that much in the beginning). Rash and brash, perhaps, but still on the right track overall, and a figure of determined courage.

Inderjit S said:

...You think so? If it wasn't for the Noldor (and therefore Feanor) Middle-Earth would have been ravaged, and Men would not have been raised to the stature to which they were raised after they met the Eldar, and there would have been no Edain. (It also brang about the union of Elves and Men via Idril and Luthien.)

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Gotta disagree with you here. One can't even speculate on what action the Valar might have taken had Feanor not broken tryst with them. It is likely that the Valar would have pursued Melkor and recovered the Silmarils, restored the Trees and created a true Eden on Middle-earth for all races.

Feanor was truly a tragic and despicable character... driven by pride, greed and lust, he both corrupted and blessed. My sig says it all.

Cheers,

grond

The Valar? Gah! We are here dealing with the narrative as Tolkien wrote it-what may or may not have happened remains exactly that-what may or may not have happened. If there was no Feanor there would be no Beren and Luthein, no Edain, no Numenor, no Rings of Power-there wouldn't be anything much, and the history of Arda would not have been as great-men would have soon into their own petty desires as they wouldn't have been enobled in the fights against Melkor and later Sauron. This, of course, doesn't make Feanor's actions "good". Oh and Cirdan and the wandering Sindar would problably be dead, and so too I guess many other Elves.

he whole of 'Middle-earth' was Morgoth's Ring, though temporarily his attention was mainly upon the North-west. Unless swiftly successful, War against him might well end in reducing all Middle-earth to chaos possibly even all Arda.

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He must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come. One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evils of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil. If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him
to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men,
or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came
into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.
In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade'.

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Quotes from Myths Transformed.

And at least Feanor and the Noldor weren't craven servants of the Valar, like the Vanyar. Others also acted indepentently of Feanor. Why did Fingolfin continue to claim the kingship after he renounced it? Why did Fingon think the Teleri thinking they were ordered by the Valar to stop the Noldor after the Valar had promised not to stop them?

also posted by Inderjit S said:

The Valar? Gah! We are here dealing with the narrative as Tolkien wrote it-what may or may not have happened remains exactly that-what may or may not have happened. If there was no Feanor there would be no Beren and Luthein, no Edain, no Numenor, no Rings of Power-there wouldn't be anything much, and the history of Arda would not have been as great-men would have soon into their own petty desires as they wouldn't have been enobled in the fights against Melkor and later Sauron. This, of course, doesn't make Feanor's actions "good". Oh and Cirdan and the wandering Sindar would problably be dead, and so too I guess many other Elves.

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Nothing in my post disagrees with what you said above. I merely disagreed with the assertions you made below. No one can be certain what would have transpired whatever the Noldor did. We can only view the tale from the author's perspective as written. Tolkien could have easily taken other avenues.

eg. The Valar vanquish Melkor and drag him back to Valinor. The Silmarils are restored and the Trees brought back to life. Then kinstrife occurs between who will/should lead the Noldor and the Fingolfin and Feanor go to war with one another. Feanor is exiled to Middle-earth for murdering Fingolfin and many of his people follow him into exile. Sauron has taken up abode in Angband and slaughters the sons of Feanor. Feanor is enraged and declares war on Sauron. Many of the Noldor who remain in Valinor are also enraged and cross the ocean to fight on Feanor's side. Same basic story with a twist.

My main point in my first post was that your quote below needn't necessarily have been true. Tolkien could easily have crafted an entirely different history.

Inderjit S said:

If it wasn't for the Noldor (and therefore Feanor) Middle-Earth would have been ravaged, and Men would not have been raised to the stature to which they were raised after they met the Eldar, and there would have been no Edain. (It also brang about the union of Elves and Men via Idril and Luthien.)

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Indy said:

If there was no Feanor there would be no Beren and Luthein, no Edain, no Numenor, no Rings of Power-there wouldn't be anything much, and the history of Arda would not have been as great-men would have soon into their own petty desires as they wouldn't have been enobled in the fights against Melkor and later Sauron.

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Wow, I don't like this thought... Of course if there was no Fëanor there would be no Beren and Lúthien, no Turin Turambar, etc. But that doesn't mean that Fëanor is good. But that's why we love the Works of Tolkien. We know that the history will be changed if someone doesn't exist but we don't like the character. I don't say that I don't want to read about Fëanor in the books but I don't like his deeds. There won't be 'Silmarilion' if Fëanor wasn't born. Melkor would destroy the Two Trees and the Valar cannot create them again. But the Silmarilli exist and they could bring the light back to the Trees. Fëanor didn't allow the Valar to take the Jewels and escaped. So the War of the Jewels began.
But it will be interesting if Fëanor allowed the Valar to take the Jewels, they find that Melkor stole them and a War begins...

Grond, are you back?

The Valar vanquish Melkor and drag him back to Valinor. The Silmarils are restored and the Trees brought back to life. Then kinstrife occurs between who will/should lead the Noldor and the Fingolfin and Feanor go to war with one another. Feanor is exiled to Middle-earth for murdering Fingolfin and many of his people follow him into exile. Sauron has taken up abode in Angband and slaughters the sons of Feanor. Feanor is enraged and declares war on Sauron. Many of the Noldor who remain in Valinor are also enraged and cross the ocean to fight on Feanor's side. Same basic story with a twist.

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Not sure about your conclusions here. First of all there is no Oath of the Silmarils-this was what caused many of the evil deeds of the sons of Feanor, and the latter two kinstrifes. Secondly why would you think that once peace had been restored, that once Morgoth had been recaptured, that there would have been a kinstrife? Never mind murder! All the princely rivalries would have been non-existent or in the least Feanor would have removed elsewhere and would not have murdered his brother, who may not have even claimed the kingship. Would not the Valar intervene any such "war" and would they both not be exiled if a war was started? Sauron was also VERY weak compared to Morgoth-the sons of Feanor would have made easily defeated him-remember they drove back Morgoth's great forces easily-most of his minions would have been destroyed by the Valar when they overthrew Morgoth, perhaps Sauron may have even repented, though most likely not, and the only thing which stopped the overthrow of Morgoth was Morgoth's powers and the Doom of Mandos-neither of which would have existed in your alternative storyline, and Sauron's small forces (without many of Morgoth's mightier creatures, such as dragons) would have been dealt with by the Feanorians-and why would the Noldor under Fingolfin want to help their kindred who they were at war with?

Tolkien could have easily have crafted something different? I daresay he could. (And did.) But then again this was the final version, and what Tolkien may or may not have done isn't really relevant.

Also on the Valar creating a "Eden"-again, for whom? For the Sindar? Most of whom would have been dead and the others would have had their own Eden in Doriath. Why should the Valar interfere? Men were hundreds of miles away, many men were evil-minded and worshipped Morgoth-what would the Valar have done? They created Numenor and gave Men great powers-but they rebelled-as soon as Men live in a Eden they soon fall from their high places, the War against Morgoth helped enoble Men.

Ingwe-I never said Feanor's bad actions were good because they lead to good.

Also-so what if Feanor didn't give his jewels to the Valar? Also he didn't say he wouldn't, he assented, but said he did they would have to force him to do so, and he would die.

If only he didnt make the oath and had been in such a rush to go to middle earth...

They could have learned how to build boats from the Telerie.
They may even have persuaded a few of them to come with.
No Doom of the Noldor
Full support of the Sindar
All of them would have gotten new bodies (including the great Feanor) and so returned to ME to make endless war on Morgoth.
The Quendi of ME united under one banner to bannish the Dark lord (recovering silmarils would be a bonus) and so having huge forces.
The Valar would have no problem (after council i think) moving accross to the war of wrath.
They (the Valar) would have persuaded anyone other to give the silmarils to Feanor and all would end up happy in the blessed relm.
Sauron would be less willing to make war on the rest of middle earth after seeing his masters complete and utter falure and so more ready to repent.
and if he did, the valar might remove him after the success they had with Melkor.
Numenor may still be thriving, the blessed relm would still be on this earth and the elves would traffic back and forth and making the whole world a blessed place.



Verdict: Its all Feanor's Fault in his rashness and i hate him.