How old is Treebeard?

[morgoth145]

how old is Fangorn (treebeard) during the war of the ring? any answer or approximate answer you have is very much welcome!

 

[Bard the Bowman]

Well, there are several places to find his approximate age and beginnings, but a quick an simple answer is found in Return of the King, when he is talking with Galadriel and Celeborn. They refer to him as Eldest, and Celeborn and Galadriel are very old, much older than Elrond. He was definitely around before the Elves made their first journey in the Silmarillion.

When I find more I will add it. It may take up to a day.

 

[Starbrow]

That would be at least several thousand years old.

 

[Bard the Bowman]

I have it! In the Silmarillion, at the end of the chapter "Of Aule and Yavanna", Manwe states, "But in the forests shall walk the Shepherds of the Trees." This is before the chapter, 'Of the Coming of the Elves'. So, since Treebeard is one of the first three, he is a cool guy. And he is around before the elves arrive in Valinor. However, do not be deceived! The elves taught the Ents speech, even though they were around before.

 

[tspnyc]

Yes, it is oft mistaken that ents are trees or were once trees, when they are in fact people.

Treebeard refers to the elves "started it, teaching the trees to talk" or some such thing. He also refers to the elves curing the ent's "dumbness". People assume the two events are one and the same, when they are not.

Obviously, Tolkien meant to be vague and allow the reader to decide what they looked like and just how ent-like huorns could become and how tree-like ents could become. But it is clear they are in the long lists of animals alongside men and harts and bears, etc., not plants.

Gandalf tells Theoden that when he meets Treebeard he will be meeting the oldest thing that ever walked. Which is another indication that the ents were around, shepherding the trees, before the elves got to Middle-earth.

 

[Bard the Bowman]

Yes, good points tspnyc. And I completely agree with you that Tolkien meant to be vague. After all, Celeborn and Galadriel hail Treebeard as "Eldest" when they meet him in LOTR. However, when Treebeard is reciting the poem of the different being, he calls the elves the "eldest of all". So who do we believe? Gandalf?

 

[Starbrow]

The elves are the eldest race, but Treebeard seems to be older than Galadriel and Celeborn.

 

[Bard the Bowman]

Celeborn was one of the original elves, was he not?

 

[Elthir]

Celeborn was one of the original elves, was he not?

To date it is not known when Celeb-orn was Cele-born.

 

[tspnyc]

Celeborn is said by his wife to be the wisest of elves in Middle-earth. Galadriel is certainly one of the oldest, she came over with the very first migration, but he may not be as old as she is.

People who go in for the rough drafts of Tolkien's creative process have noted that he first appears in the house of Thingol Graycloak long after the elves came to Middle-earth.

But the ents were here when the elves arrived.

The Elves are the eldest race of Elves, Men and Dwarves.

The Hobbits were not included in the mythology and neither were the Ents.

This does not necessarily mean the Ents are actually older than the Elves, just that they were here before the Elves got here.

Fangorn is the oldest living person in the world.

But the undying lands where the Elves originated were removed from the Circles of the World.

However, the author does imply Fangorn is older than either Celeborn or Galadriel, because Gandalf claims he is the oldest living thing in Middle-earth and the two elves themselves address him as "Eldest".

 

[Bard the Bowman]

The elves were around before the ents. Treebeard calls the elves, "eldest of all"

 

[Elthir]

A couple other things to consider, from Hammond and Scull: in an unpublished draft letter of late 1968, now in a private collection, Tolkien wrote:

'Eldest was the courtesy title of Treebeard as the oldest surviving Ent. The Ents claimed to be the oldest ’speaking people’ after the Elves [illegible] until taught the art of speech by the Elves...They were therefore placed after the dwarves in the Old List...since Dwarves had the power of speech from their awaking’

The Lord of the Rings, A Reader’s Companion Hammond and Scull, page 382 Treebeard: Entry 464 The Ent

And on page 499, while explaining Tolkien describing both Treebeard and Bombadil as ’eldest’, Hammond and Scull note: ’...it is worth repeating Christopher Tolkien’s comment that his father was given to ’rhetorical superlatives’, such as ’the oldest living thing’.

Interesting at least :*)

 

[Troll]

"When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared."

The Ents and the Elves woke simultaneously in different locales. The Ents, however, were unable to speak until the Elves taught them.

Cirdan, being of the parentless generation of Elves, yet walks Middle-Earth; he can only be at most contemporaneous with Fangorn.

Bombadil is some funky spirit-thing, and is therefore cheating.

 

[Elthir]

Although I agree that Nardor is for lovers, do we know Ciryatan was fatherless?


If I recall correctly Tolkien once imagined Ingwe as one of those who had 'awoken' (somewhere in the 1930s I think, possibly in one of the versions of the Lhammas maybe), but I think later he decided to represent this very (very) early moment in history in the context of an Elf-child's tale mixed with counting lore (Imin and so on).


I'm not sure it's ever said (1950s or later) whether any 'known Elf' from other accounts had truly awoken or not -- although some use certain details from the counting tale itself to argue that Ingwe, Finwe, Elwe could not have awoken among the original 144.

 

[Troll]

Although I agree that Nardor is for lovers, do we know Ciryatan was fatherless?

That's what the wiki says. There's a reference to The Peoples of Middle-earth, "Last Writings", "Círdan", note 30, but I do not possess that book so I can't confirm or deny.

If I recall correctly Tolkien once imagined Ingwe as one of those who had 'awoken' (somewhere in the 1930s I think, possibly in one of the versions of the Lhammas maybe), but I think later he decided to represent this very (very) early moment in history in the context of an Elf-child's tale mixed with counting lore (Imin and so on).


I'm not sure it's ever said (1950s or later) whether any 'known Elf' from other accounts had truly awoken or not -- although some use certain details from the counting tale itself to argue that Ingwe, Finwe, Elwe could not have awoken among the original 144.

Yeah. The fact that Elwe had a sibling means that he wasn't one of the originals, and I've also heard it said that Cirdan was born "Nowe," which means he wouldn't be one of the first. How do you know regarding Ingwe/Finwe, though?

Without textual references none of us can say for sure. But I do kind of like the idea that Cirdan has been around for literally the entire living history of Middle-Earth, just hanging out with his ships and being a quiet yet vital background character in many of the most critical moments in history...

 

[Elthir]

That's what the wiki says. There's a reference (...) but I do not possess that book so I can't confirm or deny.

I do but I can't find a reference here to Cirdan being one of the original Unbegotten (in the essay proper, or the notes). There is the implication that he was around very early, yes...

'Before ever they came to Beleriand the Teleri had developed a craft of boat-making; first as rafts, and soon as light boats with paddles made in imitation of the water-birds upon the lakes near their first homes, and later on the Great Journey in crossing rivers, or especially during their long tarrying on the shores of the 'Sea of Rhun', where their ships became larger and stronger. But in all this work Cirdan had ever been the foremost and most inventive and skilful.'

Yeah. The fact that Elwe had a sibling means that he wasn't one of the originals, and I've also heard it said that Cirdan was born "Nowe," which means he wouldn't be one of the first.

Someone may have referred to Cirdan's name in this manner, but here's what I recall at the moment (here at least there is no word 'born' used). 'Círdan is the Sindarin for 'Shipwright,' and describes his later functions in the history of the First Three Ages; but his 'proper' name — his original name among the Teleri, to whom he belonged — is never used.'

This is footnoted: 'Pengolod alone mentions a tradition among the Sindar of Doriath that it was in archaic form Nowe, the original meaning of which was uncertain, as was that of Olwe.'

How do you know regarding Ingwe/Finwe, though?

I think the idea has to do with Ingwe appearing to have a sister in some texts, and that Finwe's wife Miriel was born in Aman -- with respect to Finwe, in the fairy tale each Unbegotten Elf awoke with his or her spouse.


While I see the logic behind these deductions, I'm not positive one is supposed to take the counting tale as necessarily factual at all points -- while on the other hand it might become rather arbitrary to characterize one thing as 'true' while the next is characterized as an invented part of the fairy tale!


In any case I think Tolkien wanted the Awakening of the Quendi somewhat 'immersed in mist', so to speak.

 

[DerBerggeist]

Alright, is Fangorn or Tom Bombadil older? They both claim that they're the oldest. Gandalf says that Fangorn is the oldest thing that has ever walked, but Elrond claims he is "oldest and fatherless" (Iarwain Ben-adar). Explain?