If Gollum plan succeeded...

d4rk3lf · Jul 28, 2022

Squint-eyed Southerner said:
'Not for Him!'
'No, sweet one. See, my precious: if we has it, then we can escape, even from Him, eh? Perhaps we grows very strong, stronger than Wraiths. Lord Smeagol? Gollum the Great? The Gollum! Eat fish every day, three times a day, fresh from theSea. Most Precious Gollum! Must have it. We wants it,, we wants it,, we wants it!'

Well.. there you go...
He would go so far, as the sea is... and it's pretty far from Mordor, and I doubt he would went anywere on the sea, where servants of Sauron is (Umbar?), but much farer.
And that is definitely something ring didn't wanted.

Elbereth Vala Varda said:
I don't think so. What good would that do? Sauron sought the Ring, and only did he manipulate the desires of power when he feared the Ring was in danger. If perhaps, Shelob intended to devour it, he may have placed such thoughts into her mind that she would not consume it, but rather she would protect it.

I don't see it in that way at all.
In my mind, Sauron and The One Ring are separated entities, even they were from one origin. I don't think Sauron through ring directly place some thoughts into the carrier of the ring, I think that's just the ring itself, it is his feature, and it do that, even Sauron is not aware of it.
Also, greed for ring.. I see it as a ring feature... like a passive ability... something that even sometimes goes against ring's wished (like Gollum greed for it (even ring didn't wanted to get back to him))... I also doubt the ring wanted to end up with Galadriel, yet, she had desire to have it.

Squint-eyed Southerner · Jul 28, 2022

d4rk3lf said:
He would go so far, as the sea is... and it's pretty far from Mordor, and I doubt he would went anywere on the sea

That is just an expression of the egotistic fantasy which the Ring brings about. "The Gollum" would have no need to go to the Sea; he could just order fresh fish to be brought to him. All hallucinatory fantasies of a mind distorted by the Ring, of course; he could no more have mastered Sauron than Frodo could.

Which brings me to agree with your second point: it's the Ring itself that puts these thoughts into the minds of people, distorting and feeding upon their egos. It should be kept in mind that Sauron wasn't even aware that the Ring had survived, until Gollum's capture and interrogation, sometime between T.A. 3009 and 3017. Before that, as Gandalf said, "He believed the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done.'

Gothmog · Jul 28, 2022

d4rk3lf said:
I don't see it in that way at all.
In my mind, Sauron and The One Ring are separated entities, even they were from one origin. I don't think Sauron through ring directly place some thoughts into the carrier of the ring, I think that's just the ring itself, it is his feature, and it do that, even Sauron is not aware of it.

Not entirely separated though Sauron could not actually control that part of himself that he placed in the One Ring, he could access that power and influence the One to return to him.

Squint-eyed Southerner said:
Which brings me to agree with your second point: it's the Ring itself that puts these thoughts into the minds of people, distorting and feeding upon their egos. It should be kept in mind that Sauron wasn't even aware that the Ring had survived, until Gollum's capture and interrogation, sometime between T.A. 3009 and 3017. Before that, as Gandalf said, "He believed the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done.'

Despite what Gandalf said, Sauron would have known much sooner that the One had not been destroyed. It was probably some time after the death of Isildur and the loss of the Ring in Anduin that Sauron started to rebuild his body. He would have been aware that the One still existed at this point. If the One Ring had been destroyed he would not have been able to recover enough to even think of a new body. What he did not know was where it was. The fact that he could still make use of the part of himself within it would be enough to prove to Sauron that it still existed.

Squint-eyed Southerner · Jul 28, 2022

This is possible; I've argued elsewhere however that it's just as likely-- IMO more likely-- that he did believe the Ring had been destroyed, just as Gandalf said, and that he consequently believed -- mistakenly -- that he had somehow retained the ability to reform, even without it.

As I say, a matter of opinion-- or interpretation. I'll just add that Sauron "returned to Mordor" immediately after being caught in the destruction of Numenor. Unless he flew, swam, or floated on a raft, I have to assume destruction of his physical form, though admittedly, this is not explained.

In contrast, after his "killing" in the War of the Last Alliance, it appears it took him at least a millennium to reform. I can easily see how this could lead him to think it was due to the destruction of the Ring, and subsequent reduction of his power.

Copia · Jul 28, 2022

Copia said:
Yes. I am very certain I read that they had a mutual understanding, wether it was in LOTR, appendix or somewhere else that Tolkien wrote, but Im not 100% sure.
Regardless I think this is very likely as she as stated had go somewhere else to feed if the food was not brought to her.

Read the chapter again. And Sauron actually called Shelob his "cat", so he clearly saw her as his pet. And a cat was a pretty good comparison then. Not like a loyal dog who obey and care for his master, but a cat who only "hang around", haha. If you're using the stereotype.

But yes it clearly states that they both left each other be and they both helped each other in that regard that Shelob just stayed at her home, and that gave Sauron protection at a weak spot into Mordor, and Shelob was happily being delivered food(orcs, prisoners).

And the chapter Shelob's Lair is so fantastic. How Tolkien captures Frodo's and Sam's horrific journey down that tunnel is one of my favorites in all his writings.

Elbereth Vala Varda · Jul 28, 2022

d4rk3lf said:
I don't see it in that way at all.
In my mind, Sauron and The One Ring are separated entities, even they were from one origin. I don't think Sauron through ring directly place some thoughts into the carrier of the ring, I think that's just the ring itself, it is his feature, and it do that, even Sauron is not aware of it.
Also, greed for ring.. I see it as a ring feature... like a passive ability... something that even sometimes goes against ring's wished (like Gollum greed for it (even ring didn't wanted to get back to him))... I also doubt the ring wanted to end up with Galadriel, yet, she had desire to have it.

Yes, they are separated entities, but in a way, they must be bound together. Sauron created the Ring, and put into it his malice and Evil. His mind was brought into the Ring, because he was it's maker. His forged creation reflected himself. In a subconscious way, the Mind of Sauron controlled and mastered the Ring. While he may not have consciously and with full intent put those thoughts into the minds of Frodo, and Gollum, it is the Ring that acted his will through it's own force, at least in my mind.

The greed for the Ring is something that to me, does not need to be created. Everyone has it within them to desire it, save for Tom Bombadil, who had no attachment to it at all for reasons left unstated. That was indeed just a quality of the Ring, and had little or nothing to do with Sauron, save for the truth that Sauron created the Ring.

I have both agreements and disagreements with your opinions, as I do with many, and as many do with me, but discussing this topic is truly a joy. Thank you.

Squint-eyed Southerner · Jul 28, 2022

Copia said:
And Sauron actually called Shelob his "cat", so he clearly saw her as his pet.

This is not actually true.

And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to his cat (his cat he calls her, but she owns him not)

The "he" here is the "man", not Sauron. We don't know what Sauron called her.

Uminya · Jul 28, 2022

I think the answer to this question is essentially the same as the answer to the question about Smaug and the One Ring; some entities, however evil, would not suit the Ring's purpose of returning to Sauron's hand. Smaug and Shelob are similar in their evilness and capacity for doing evil, but they are harder to manipulate into doing Sauron's will; Ungoliant herself was never subservient to Morgoth, and it follows that her spawn wouldn't have any obedience to Morgoth's chief servant either. As the text says, the One Ring held no interest for her, which is in contrast to the power that the Ring was able to wield against humans, elves, and even hobbits. Isildur, Boromir, and Smeagol were all people that the Ring could use and dominate in order to fulfill its purpose: returning to Sauron.

I think it is safe to say that the Ring had a better chance of getting back to Sauron via Frodo, Samwise, or one of the orcs of Minas Morgul or Cirith Ungol. It seems reasonable that that is why it didn't betray Samwise to keep itself in Shelob's lair, as it had betrayed Gollum in order to leave the Misty Mountains.

d4rk3lf · Jul 28, 2022

Gothmog said:
The fact that he could still make use of the part of himself within it would be enough to prove to Sauron that it still existed.

My thoughts exactly.

And another "proof" he was well aware that ring is not destroyed is his searching of Anduin river, long before he captured Gollum.
The act that finally got Saruman agree to attack Dol Guldur, so he can search for himself.

Gothmog · Jul 28, 2022

Squint-eyed Southerner said:
This is possible; I've argued elsewhere however that it's just as likely-- IMO more likely-- that he did believe the Ring had been destroyed, just as Gandalf said, and that he consequently believed -- mistakenly -- that he had somehow retained the ability to reform, even without it.

As I say, a matter of opinion-- or interpretation. I'll just add that Sauron "returned to Mordor" immediately after being caught in the destruction of Numenor. Unless he flew, swam, or floated on a raft, I have to assume destruction of his physical form, though admittedly, this is not explained.

In contrast, after his "killing" in the War of the Last Alliance, it appears it took him at least a millennium to reform. I can easily see how this could lead him to think it was due to the destruction of the Ring, and subsequent reduction of his power.

Sauron on the destruction of the One vanished so that none in Middle-earth were ever aware of him again. The fact that he could recover was enough to show that the One existed. That he could build a new body showed him that the greater part of his native strength was still available to him. What he did not know was where the One was or if it could again be found. That the Elves or the Dunedain did not have it would also be clear as in such a case the One would have been either destroyed or used.

Akallabeth:
But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure.

It is clear that Sauron's body was destroyed and he did fly back.

I did say that some time passed before he was able to create a new body. It is the fact that he was able to do so that would show that the One existed though he would not know where. It was not until he learned from Gollum about the Ring he "found" that Sauron knew it was found and it could be reclaimed.

Gothmog · Jul 28, 2022

Squint-eyed Southerner said:
This is not actually true.

The "he" here is the "man", not Sauron. We don't know what Sauron called her.

We do know what Sauron called her:

And as for Sauron: he knew where she lurked. It pleased him that she should dwell there hungry but unabated in malice, a more sure watch upon that ancient path into his land than any other that his skill could have devised.

She was simply a Guard. Following on from that and to put the "Cat" quote into better context:

And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to his cat (his cat he calls her, but she owns him not) Sauron would send her prisoners that he had no better uses for: he would have them driven to her hole, and report brought back to him of the play she made.
So they both lived, delighting in their own devices, and feared no assault, nor wrath, nor any end of their wickedness. Never yet had any fly escaped from Shelob's webs, and the greater now was her rage and hunger.

Sauron knew she was there and was happy to leave her be. Shelob had no interest in Sauron or his machinations and was happy to take any food that came into her webs.

Squint-eyed Southerner · Jul 28, 2022

Oh, I agree that he regarded Shelob as guard on the pass; the question was what he called her. That we don't know. But it's a minor point, in any event.

Thanks for the quote from Akallabeth, which had slipped my mind. That he was able to reform and attack Gondor after only 10 years shows the contrast with the thousand it took him to be able to begin taking shape again the second time.

He must have become aware that the Ring had not been destroyed, at some point, though it's not clear to me from the texts exactly when that was. Was it when he fully attained shape? Perhaps, but I'll rely on Gandalf's wisdom.

d4rk3lf · Jul 28, 2022

Squint-eyed Southerner said:
That he was able to reform and attack Gondor after only 10 years shows the contrast with the thousand it took him to be able to begin taking shape again the second time.

I assume it's for 2 reasons:
1) The ring was present and in his possession when he took new shape. I am guessing that ring can speed up the process very much.
2) He was stronger back then, Every time he dies, he looses some of his strength. In 3th Age, he died once more after the war with last alliance.

Squint-eyed Southerner · Jul 28, 2022

I'd tend to agree with your first assumption, though the nature of the relationship between Sauron and the Ring is fraught with ambiguities.

I definitely agree with your second, as Tolkien gave this explanation himself in a letter.

Elbereth Vala Varda · Jul 28, 2022

d4rk3lf said:
2) He was stronger back then, Every time he dies, he looses some of his strength. In 3th Age, he died once more after the war with last alliance.

I believe this sounds familiar from one of Tolkien's letters I read recently. Completely correct.

d4rk3lf · Jul 28, 2022

Oh.. very well then.. since I never read his letters... just saw them on internet here and there.
Probably picked it up from some of the sites (maybe here), although I maybe read it in Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales.
It's actually pretty often that Tolkien speaks of "everything is greater in the past".

Copia · Jul 28, 2022

Regarding the «cat» thing is due to my poor reading then. Allways thought it was Sauron who called Shelob «cat».

Gothmog · Jul 29, 2022

Squint-eyed Southerner said:
Oh, I agree that he regarded Shelob as guard on the pass; the question was what he called her. That we don't know. But it's a minor point, in any event.

Thanks for the quote from Akallabeth, which had slipped my mind. That he was able to reform and attack Gondor after only 10 years shows the contrast with the thousand it took him to be able to begin taking shape again the second time.

He must have become aware that the Ring had not been destroyed, at some point, though it's not clear to me from the texts exactly when that was. Was it when he fully attained shape? Perhaps, but I'll rely on Gandalf's wisdom.

d4rk3lf said:
I assume it's for 2 reasons:
1) The ring was present and in his possession when he took new shape. I am guessing that ring can speed up the process very much.
2) He was stronger back then, Every time he dies, he looses some of his strength. In 3th Age, he died once more after the war with last alliance.

He probably used the name that others used to report about her "Shelob". I doubt he had enough interest to call her anything else
Gandalf was not "All Seeing", his power, knowledge and wisdom, even as The White was far removed from that of Olorin. While it did take much time for him to start rebuilding his body the end of that thousand years would be when he became aware of the Ring not being destroyed.

Yes the Ring allows him to retain enough power to rebuild his body. Actual physical possession of the Ring would probably speed up the process.
Number 2 is also correct

If Gollum plan succeeded...

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