Immortal 🧌Orcs

[Huan]

I was just looking on the TolkienWiki website and it said that in some passage in LOTR one of Gorbag or Shagrat reminiscies about "The Great Seige", pressumably of the Last Alliance, meaning either that they were alive at the end of the Second Age or orcs pass tales down from generation to generation (can't quite picture that tho). Are orcs immortal ? It would kind of make sense considering that the majority of opinion is that they were originally elves. And what is the fate of orcs after death ? Halls of Mandos ? Doom of men ? What do you think ?

 

[Confusticated]

My answer to the question of orc immortality can be found here.

I don't have an opinion about the destination of their spirits (assuming they have them).

 

[Huan]

thanks dude . do you really have no thoughts on what happens to orcs when they die tho ?

 

[Arvedui]

It is rather difficult to decide what might happen to orcs when they die, as long as the subject of their origin is unsettled.
But according to what can be found, they are either of mannish or elvish origin. So possible explanations might be:
1) If they are of elvish origin, then they would as Nóm states, probably be called to Mandos where they would stay until they were healed. Or they could refuse the summoning, and end up as mere shadows.
2) If they are of mannish origin, then they will not be bound to Arda, and their spirits will probably go to a different place.

Both of these theories would necessitate that the orcs did indeed have spirits.

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

maybe like the join their buddy Morgoth in the outer void since he corrupted/created them in the first place. Or their spirits just roam around like Saruman's(if thats what his does). Or they just do what Sauron's spirit did and knaw at themselves or whatever, way too weak to ever come back.

 

[Snaga]

I feel drawn to this thread, like a dragon to a dwarf-hole!

I think that the suggestion of Huan's that it is more plausible that orcs are immortal than that they pass down tales from one generation to the next is wrong, particularly if the implication is that Shagrat and/or Gorbag remember the Great Siege. I certainly see nothing in the text to suggest that they are speaking first hand of events they recall.

What we do get is an insight into orc society, which suggests that they do indeed talk and reminisce about the past. We know the murder rate is pretty high amongst orcs, and that they don't do compassion in a big way, but it is not the case that they are stupid, don't talk to each other, and don't have a collective identity. On the contrary, they appear capable of maintaining continuous social orders (of some kind - particularly when directed by a greater power) for many many years. This means they are capable of self-organisation, talking to each other, and therefore (as with any society) telling stories that shape their identity and self-image. I see no reason at all to think they might not have stories about the past (even if their historical record might not accord with that as told in Rivendell!).

I think the clearest evidence we have of the life-span of orcs is the case of Bolg who led the orcs into the Battle of Five Armies (TA2941), who's father was slain by Dain Ironfoot in TA2799. This means he was at least 142 (unless someone has a theories about orcish embryo freezing, or freakishly long gestation periods!).

My own feeling is that orcs might have the capacity for long life, but due to their 'life-style' not many survive that long. Perhaps too, some have more the longevity gene than others. But I'm not sure there would have been any maia-orcs left in the TA. We know there were originally many Maia drawn into Melkor's service in the Beginning. But how many of these would have survived the many battles Melkor fought?

 

[Bucky]

If, as seems likely, Orcs come from Elves that were 'slowly'changed (The Silm) over many years, then it would be logical to assume that they have the same lifespan & fate as The Eldar.....