Irresponsibility at the Council of 🧝Elrond

[YayGollum]

I think it talks about Dwarves being almost as quiet as nasssty hobbitses in that chapter with the trolls. Something about the evil thief Bilbo Baggins walking around in the woods and complaining about the Dwarvish racket, but that the whole group could have passed by a human from not very far away without being noticed.

Anyways, I already said that I would have allowed the superly boring Frodo to go because of poor Smeagol. But that's only because I read the book. If I hadn't, I'd go with the Dwarves.

Also, we have no idea how huge the resistance to evil the Dwarves had next to the nasssty hobbitses was. I'd say that Dwarves would be better since they were made by a god specifically to resist the evil of another god while the nasssty hobbitses are just some weird type of human.

 

[Hadhafang]

Imagine this scenario, a parent gives an 8-year old child a diamond worth $1,000,000. The task given to the kid is to walk the diamond back to its rightful owner 50 city blocks away in a high crime area. The parents also know that there are nine mass murderers/muggers at large in the neighborhood that have recently escaped from prison under sentences of child murder. A few of these murderers know the kid has the diamond and will kill for it. Would you consider the parent, a responsible parent?

While Frodo is not eight year children, he is relatively as wise as one compared to Elrond and Gandalf who can be compared to the parents in the analogy.

I still maintain that the Council of Elrond was a failure and that they were downright neglectful. The best solution was the eagles proposed by many others in the past.

 

[FAUST]

I hate to say but Frodo was a wimp he should have been more tough and not rely on anybody but himself, but then again I dont know much about the story.

 

[FrankSinatra]

Well

Then why are you here?

 

[kohaku]

Well, greed for wealth is not exactly the same as a desire for power, but they are similar. Desire for power is just another form of greed, and wealth and power are often closely related. I don't think a dwarf would succomb to the ring as easily as a man, but I still think a dwarf would be less able to resist than a hobbit.

Also, anyone who thinks ANYONE in the fellowship is a wimp should try putting themselves in that character's position. Not as easy as it sounds. Part of the problem is we are given unrealistically powerful characters like wizards and elves to compare the other characters to, so that to some readers the very realistic shortcoming of those other characters are magnified out of proportion.

 

[Gandalf White]

My personal opinion is that the only way the Ring could be destroyed is the way it was done, giving it to Frodo. Not only was fate involved (remember, Frodo decides he wants to stay with Bilbo, he opens his mouth and out comes "I will take it"), but the relationships that he had that enabled him to fulfill his task. The loyal Sam who not only kept him going, but rescued him and saved the Ring. Gollum, the totally pivotal piece of the puzzle who actually destroys the Ring. As stated before I seriously doubt any dwarf would keep Gollum alive. Then, when he got to the Crack of Doom and claimed it for himself there would be nothing to save him from the Nazgul coming to take him.
In summary, fate gave the Ring to Frodo, but Frodo still had to conquer the mission. "If you do not find a way, no one will"

 

[Feanorian]

Imagine this scenario, a parent gives an 8-year old child a diamond worth $1,000,000. The task given to the kid is to walk the diamond back to its rightful owner 50 city blocks away in a high crime area. The parents also know that there are nine mass murderers/muggers at large in the neighborhood that have recently escaped from prison under sentences of child murder. A few of these murderers know the kid has the diamond and will kill for it.

Well first off I would not call Frodo an 8 year old, and second off to answer your question I think I would send my kid on that trip with 3 of his best friends and 5 deadly assasins, especially an old wizard whom the leaders of the council new what he was capable of.......

 

[YayGollum]

Ack! Why do people still think that Dwarves wouldn't work? Didn't I already say that they were made by a god to resist the evilness of the most superly evil god? It worked. Morgoth wasn't able to mess with the Dwarves. Why would Sauron be able to if he's nowhere near as big and scary and powerful as Morgoth? I'd think that a Dwarf would just be able to walk right up to that crack of doom thingy and toss the Ring in.

 

[BlackCaptain]

Just probly because Dwarves are greedy and already have trouble up in the Iron Hills. There aren't really any special Dwarves out there. And Tolkien's whole story is around the Bagginses.

 

[YayGollum]

Isn't this thread about crazy hypotheticalness? Why worry about the evil Bagginses? Anyways, Gimli wasn't doing anything in the Iron Hills and I don't remember him seeming superly overwhelmingly greedy all the time.

 

[kohaku]

Yes, perhaps a dwarf could accomplish the task. Who knows? But I still think a dwarf is more likely to fail because they are more greedy and less stealthy. Also, hobbits had played a small role in the history of middle earth, so Sauron would more easily overlook one. Dwarves, on the other hand, came about in the first age and were present in many wars and conflicts.

In particular, Elrond chose Frodo because he had already carried the ring so far without being overpowered, even after the ringwraith attack.

 

[YayGollum]

How would greed stop a Dwarf from tossing the One Ring into that crack of doom thing? Look at Gimli. When did his greed ever get in his way? I can't even remember seeing any evidence of greed on the guy in the entire book. oh well. I'm sure you have a great reason for doubt.

How would being a little less noticeable than a hobbit stop a Dwarf from tossing the One Ring into that crack of doom thing? I just don't get that part. oh well.

You think that a huge reason for the nasssty hobbitses being able to get to that Mount Doom place without getting caught is because history didn't notice them very much? What, would Sauron be able to sense approaching Dwarves carrying his Ring around better than some nasssty hobbit? I missed that part.

 

[Hadhafang]

Tolkien's LOTR is a masterpiece. I am in no way stating that Tolkien should have written it any other way. This thread is supposed to point out what in my opinion was a poor judgment call by some of the characters in the story. I could also say that Boromir did not behave justly when he tried to take the ring from Frodo. Noone would argue with that. That isn't a knock on Tolkien.

In particular, Elrond chose Frodo because he had already carried the ring so far without being overpowered, even after the ringwraith attack.

I see this as lending support to my argument. The council sent damaged goods to destroy the ring. If they wanted to maintain stealth they should have given the ring to another equally strong hobbit that wasn't fresh off the disabled list. Furthermore, a new ring bearer would have had less exposure to the ring by that point and probably would NOT have choked on Mt. Doom like Frodo. In the end the fellowship succeeded. However, they relied on an enormous amount of good fortune to accomplish victory. The council threw entirely too much caution into the wind with the plan they developed....irresponsible!

 

[Gothmog]

Furthermore, a new ring bearer would have had less exposure to the ring by that point and probably would NOT have choked on Mt. Doom like Frodo.

I point of fact it would not matter who took the ring to Mt. Doom. Even a "Fresh Hobbit" (yum yum ) would have "Choked on Mt. Doom like Frodo." There was in fact No one in Middle-earth, Not even Sauron himself who could do anything to intentionaly harm the Ring.

 

[Arvedui]

I do not think that the CoE was irresponsible.
They choose the best available person to accomplish the mission, and supplied him with the best possible companions.In additio to the 'stealth-ability,' let me add a couple of more pros:
1) The race 'hobbits' were an unknown to Sauron and his followers, until he was told by Gollum, who had the Ring.
2) Hobbits had shown an unprecedented ability to withstand the power of the Ring.

Sauron knew what the Elves, Dwarves and Men were capable of, and what their weaknesses were. He didn't know diddly about Hobbits' capacities, in fact he hardly knew about them at all, until it was too late, and the Ring was about to leave its last known location. Add to this the fact that Bilbo had not fallen to the Ring for a great number of years, and that Frodo had also shown that he was able to stand against evil (Weathertop).
Of course they had a bit of good luck in that Samwise would not let Frodo go alone, but I guess that one as wise as Elrond would have known that Sam eventually would follow Frodo everywhere. At least Galadriel knew that, later.

Of course YayGollum would want the Dwarves to take the Ring, because he knows that Gollum would have taken it. But thanks to Sam (and Frodo), he only got to take it to a nice, hot lava-bath

 

[Feanorian]

Well he didnt want to get shown up by Legalos the elf so he went, i doubt he or any other dwarf would be interested in going to Mordor, even if they were able to.......maybe it could have sucessful if they werent so loud...but then again ma ybe not.

 

[kohaku]

The fact that Frodo had carried the ring and resisted the ringwraiths showed Elrond that he was capable of the task. I can see how some may take that as "sending damaged goods" but that is not how I see it. In many ways the saying "whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger" is true. Although it did not really make him physically stronger, resisting the wringraiths was an exercise in mental power, and that experience made him the best fit for the task.

How would being a little less noticeable than a hobbit stop a Dwarf from tossing the One Ring into that crack of doom thing? I just don't get that part. oh well.

I never said a dwarf couldn't do it, I said being less noticeable would make it more difficult.

You think that a huge reason for the nasssty hobbitses being able to get to that Mount Doom place without getting caught is because history didn't notice them very much? What, would Sauron be able to sense approaching Dwarves carrying his Ring around better than some nasssty hobbit? I missed that part.

Yes, he would more easily notice a dwarf because he knows more about them than about hobbits. Dwarves do not shy away from war, and their weaponry is well known throughout middle earth. An approaching dwarf would be much for suspicious to Sauron than an approaching hobbit.

 

[Gandalf White]

Just a comment. All the people in here seem to be saying that Elrond and/or the council chose Frodo to bear the Ring to Mount Doom. This is not true. Fate took over as I stated earlier, and Frodo willingly took the Ring himself. It was not of Elrond's choosing, although he immediately saw that the task was "appointed to Frodo" by fate.
And thank you Gothmog for that statement you made. It proves that Frodo was really the only one who could accomplish the task because he alone had the crucial relationship with Gollum that ultimately destroyed the Ring.

 

[kohaku]

Just a comment. All the people in here seem to be saying that Elrond and/or the council chose Frodo to bear the Ring to Mount Doom. This is not true. Fate took over as I stated earlier, and Frodo willingly took the Ring himself. It was not of Elrond's choosing, although he immediately saw that the task was "appointed to Frodo" by fate.

Very true. Perhaps it would be more appropriate for me to say that the council agreed with, or did not detain, Frodo. This debate concerns whether or not the council was irresponsible in their decision to let Frodo take the ring rather than choose an alternative.

 

[Melko Belcha]

For one, a Dwarf could not take the ring to Mordor, expecially one of the Longbeards. What do you think Gimli would have done once he had the One Ring and got into the Orc infested Mountains of Mordor? Gimli is my favorite character of the Fellowship, but his hatred for Orcs would have been his downfall, just as Boromir's desire to restore and save Gondor was his downfall.

I don't see the Eagles destroying the Ring for the same reason they cannot take the Ring to the True West. The Eagles were the decandents of the Eagles of Manwe from the First Age, so IMO they would not have taken it because it was a problem for Men to deal with. I know the Eagles had helped out alot in the story, but I just don't see them taking on the responsability for saving the world.

As Gandalf pointed out, Sauron had little or no knowledge of Hobbits, which gave them a big advantage. Sauron would expect a Man, Elf, Dwarf, or even Gandalf to take charge of the Ring, and would keep as close a watch on them as he could. Sauron would not expect them to put their hopes into such a small, and to him, weak race.

And as Gandalf said, Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and that means Frodo was meant to carry it. Plus Galadriel came from Valinor and had lived in the pressence of the Valar, so I'm sure she had alot of insight and could tell that there was more at work then just chance.

When you try to sneek into an enemies land you want to sent the people with the most stealth and the people who the enemy would expect the least, the Hobbits were the perfect choice. You never know, if Gandalf or Aragorn would have stayed with Frodo he may have been given away before he even reached the Black Gate.