Is 👁️Sauron a Necromancer?

[Confusticated]

I don't know about getting foresight from the dead. Sauron, as a Maia, should have more foreknowledge than the spirit of a dead man or elf. But I will get to this below. The gift of foresight could come direct from Iluvatar, or second-hand from someone else who had seen the future... Melian or Ulmo for example.

If the spirits of men or elves have any true knowledge of the future, and a necromancer gets this from them, I would doubt that it really foresight. I think it would be more like going to a fortune-teller that seems to speak the truth... you hear of the future from someone, but do not see it with true foresight.


I also had the impression that necromancy was just some art of dealing with the dead... and not necessarily doing this to learn of the future.

But if someone thinks Sauron was able to get knowledge of the future from the dead, then I'd be interested in hearing how it is that the spirits of dead men get this information... are they free to travel in time within Arda or do they get some amazing education through contact with other spirits such as Ainur? I doubt the spirits of men and elves that stick around Arda would have too much contact with Ainur. Perhaps only Mandos for a time? But any spirit that sticks around wandering Arda has refused something... and is not on the right path... so their communication with Ainur spirits seems very unlikely to me. But, if the spirits of the Children can actually travel in time within Arda and see the future, then perhaps they could transfere that vision direct to a living spirit, but as Inder has shown, these visions could not be trusted... and if they are decietful they are not foresight.

 

[Illuvatar]

It seems unlikely that he has the gift of foresight, because if he did, he would have posted a heavier guard around Mordor so that Frodo and Sam couldn't get in, wouldn't he? I mean, the first and foremost reaon he probably would have used his foresight for would be to discover his weaknesses, wouldn't he?

 

[jallan]

For a fuller definition of necromancy:

NOUN: 1. The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future. 2. Black magic; sorcery. 3. Magic qualities.

ETYMOLOGY: Alteration of Middle English nigromancie, from Old French nigremancie, from Medieval Latin nigromantia, alteration (influenced by Latin niger, black) of Late Latin necromantia, from Greek nekromanteia : nekros, corpse; see nek-¹ in Appendix I + manteia, divination; see –mancy.

There is a fuller discussion at Catholic Encyclopeida: Necromancy.

As the citation given by Inderjit S indicates, Tolkien in the case of Sauron agrees speaks both of consultation and making the dead into servants.

One can speculate that spirits of the dead were imprisoned within the watching statues at Cirith Ungol or that the Barrow-wights were in origin sprits of the dead given the power to possess the corpses of those lying within the barrows.

But as Nóm indicates (in agreement with the citation from Tolkien provided by Inderjit S) it seems unlikely that the dead could have much knowledge of the future in Tolkien’s legendarium.

Ghosts as watchers and spies would appear to be useful. But no-one ever expresses fear of being overheard by the hostile dead. Perhaps the dead, unless able to partly anchor themselves in a stream or tree or something like that, are blown hither and yon against any will of their own and seldom have opportunity to reveal what they might on occasion perceive.

If one believes folklore, many ghosts are bound to the place of their death. Something of that kind appears with the Dead summoned by Aragorn. It is odd that the only case of something resembling communion with the dead in Tolkien’s legendarium involves the “good guys”.

 

[Úlairi]

All very notable indeed jallan, and yes, the watchers certainly could have been some of the dead. What would interest me, however, is if they could be used to find the Ring! Perhaps whenever the company feels 'a shadow; pass over them, it may indeed be one of the dead in Sauron's service.

 

[Inderjit S]

Yes, Ulairi it is found in the Latter Quenta (II) in 'Laws and Customs of the Eldar'.

 

[Arthur_Vandelay]

Why is Sauron called a Necromancer

Please forgive me if this question has been asked elsewhere.

Why is Sauron called a Necromancer?

 

[Gamil Zirak]

He went under that name so that no one would know he was coming back into power. Once the White Council found out who he was, they ran him off (although he was ready to go back to Mordor anyway).

 

[Gandalf White]

So did he just assume that title, or was there some justification for its usage?

 

[Saermegil]

This was discussed in another thread a while back. Never Mind.

A necromancer I think is supposed to be able to communicate with the dead to predict the future. It also more widely associated with black magic. It's greek : nekros=dead+mantis= seer.

 

[Gandalf White]

How far back was that, as I must go searching for it. Or could you sum up what was discussed?

I had always associated a necromancer with (of course) black magic, but also the ability to raise spirits/bodies from the dead.

 

[Saermegil]

I just remember there was a similar thread to this one. Not much else.

 

[Snaga]

Its way too time-consuming to read other threads. I doubt that Sauron called himself the necromancer. As he had the 9 in his service, the title seems apt. Perhaps the woodmen of Mirkwood called him that? It is not elvish.

 

[Inderjit S]

'The Hobbit' and 'The Lord of The Rings' are of course translations. So necromancer may just be the equivalent to the equivalent title in Westron or the tongue of the woodmen. Tolkien uses necromancer to describe the sorcerers under Sauron in Dol Guldur. Necromancy seems to be quite a arhaic word for practicing some kind of black magic. I remember coming across the words in the Faust books (Marlowe and Goethe, can't remember coming across it in the Thomas Mann version).