Just a crazy theory...

[BluestEye]

He [Melkor] had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame... Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Iluvatar.

Ainulindale, The Silmarillion

Gandalf said to the Balrog in Moria that he holds the Secret Fire of Anor. Maybe, just maybe, Gandalf is Iluvatar...

It's only a beginning of a theory, I just thought about it when I read it (I started reading the Sil again) and I decided to offer this theory to you.

BluestEye

 

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by BluestEye


Ainulindale, The Silmarillion

Gandalf said to the Balrog in Moria that he holds the Secret Fire of Anor. Maybe, just maybe, Gandalf is Iluvatar...

It's only a beginning of a theory, I just thought about it when I read it (I started reading the Sil again) and I decided to offer this theory to you.

BluestEye

Yeah i think it might be a bit crazy but gandalf is olorin the maia and he would have been able 2 finish of sauron easily. Now would saruman be picked over eru? The flame of is the fire he can produce cause of the ring ain't it? Thats why gandalf is so good at doing things with fire?

 

[BluestEye]

That can be arguable

Let's get into this a little deeper. Iluvatar created all things, and he knows what will happen at the end of all things. This and more, Iluvatar didn't want to interfer in the deeds of Arda. Instead he created the Valar and the Maiar and gave them the permission to order the world and build it as they want to, to fulfill Iluvatar's Song.
Now, maybe he decided that Melkor must be punished for his doings, for "ruining" Iluvatar's song, but he wanted to do it secretly, without interfering directly with the people of Middle-Earth, so he created a Maia (or he himself was clad as a Maia so other people, even other Valar, won't recognize him) and he went down to wonder among the people to help them personaly beat Melkor and Sauron, his helper.
This way, Gandalf had the Secret Fire because he himself was Iluvatar in disguise, or Iluvatar created a Maia especialy for this mission and gave him to guard the Secret Fire so that Melkor or Sauron wouldn't find it under their noses.
So Gandalf-Iluvatar traveled through Middle-Earth with the Secret Fire and indeed had Fire-Magic and other powers because of this. But he wore also the Ring of Fire so that the poeple of Middle-Earth who knew about it won't ask questions.

BluestEye

 

[Hirila]

Perhaps like God in this crazy movie: Dogma, where he (sorry, she) comes down onto earth for a game of mini-golf?

I don`t know.

Gandalf is an Istari, like Saruman, Radagast and the blue ones. Then what are they? And it is said that Saruman is the mightiest among them. Ok, the person Gandalf could have been a disguise. But I don`t believe it. I think that Gandalf prooved to be the most powerful wizard simply because he was one of Manwes Maiar. And maybe Manwes Maiar are the most powerful just as Manwe himself is the mightiest Vala.

 

[BluestEye]

I never thought about Alanys Morisette as Gandlaf, Jajajaja

Now, seriously, though it is always said that Saruman is more powerful than Gandalf - it always seems that Gandalf is cleverer, greater and even more powerful than the rest of the Istari.
So maybe the rest of the Istari didn't even know that Iluvatar is watching them from within...

BluestEye

 

[Ancalagon]

Very good question: I imagine some of the Tolkien scholars will be devouring their tattered old volumes to try to give the perfect answer! I know I am...........................?

 

[Anarchist]

What you are saying BluestEye is that Eru came to ME like Jesus Christ? (meaning with human appearance) This is an interesting theory but I disagree. Iluvatar wasn't there when Morgoth made his evil actions wich made much more damage than Sauron's actions. Why would he come now? Also, I don't think Iluvatar would make the mistake of passing through Caradhas and failing. But the fact that he fell in the abyss in Moria and didn't die makes me suspicous. Maybe you are right. Now you confused me.

 

[Atticus]

Originally posted by BluestEye


Ainulindale, The Silmarillion

Gandalf said to the Balrog in Moria that he holds the Secret Fire of Anor. Maybe, just maybe, Gandalf is Iluvatar...

It's only a beginning of a theory, I just thought about it when I read it (I started reading the Sil again) and I decided to offer this theory to you.

BluestEye

Man, Pass what you are smoking over here...that is some trip you went on there...interesting thought....but it is said specifically that Gandalf is Olorin the maia.
But the thought about Iluvatar coming into arda as another form is interesting.

 

[BluestEye]

Ancalagon, what question do you mean? Is it the question if Gandalf is indeed Iluvatar?
As I said, Anarchist, it is a strange and crazy theory, but it can explain many things as you found out, and it can be possible. And maybe it is the answear to many riddles.
Neither you nor I can guess why Gandalf took the fellowship through Moria, but if he was Iluvatar it could be for some reasons combined together:

He couldn't save the Fellowship from Saruman's magics without exposing his true identity with his powers, so he gave Frodo the choice (a directed-psychologicaly choice) to go to Moria. This way he could escape the party without any suspicion by falling to the chasm with the Balrog. Then he could raise the Ents' hunger and make them go and fight Saruman. Again, I believe that Gandalf-Iluvatar didn't want to interfer directly in the world, but make small changes that will affect greatly the future of Arda.

Indeed, these reasons can fit also if Gandalf was just a Maia, and this is also a thing that he wished to conceal from most people of Middle-Earth, and this puts us in a confusing situation, wich makes it more exciting

I think the Ents could bring some answears to this riddle and so I will go and look for them in The Two Towers.

Wish me luck

BluestEye

 

[Beorn]

This is a very interesting topic, but maybe some people should rather than close the subject, open it more!

That question actually flashed through my mind when reading the Silmarillion, but I disregarded it as a little wandering of my mind. I never really thought up some evidence though.

If Gandalf was Ilu, then it would fit very well that he would want to make discreet changes to the happenings of Arda. Ilu left a great deal up to the Valar and Maiar...so it would look like the Istari were taking care of Sauron, even though he was. Also, in the forming of the White Council, Galadriel wanted Olorin to be the head. We also know that Galadriel can perceive the thoughts of others. Never was a limit to whom she can 'read' given, so one might say that she read his thoughts, and knew what he was up to.

Someone may rebut this with "Well, why didn't Ilu/Olorin control the minds of everyone to make himself the head?" We know that Ilu wanted to have as little interaction as possible, so he probably just let it flow....

 

[BluestEye]

If you want to know what I smoke, Attacus, think about this:

Margaret weiss and Tracy Hickman's "Dragonlance" took many things from Tolkiens works. I don't say that they coppied, but... well... judge for yourselves:

Fizban, the strange wizards, wearing gray robes, was in fact the Great God, Paladin. He decsended to Krynn to make changes without people knowing that it was he.
But for some reason he felt that he must leave the party for a while so he fell into a chasm!!!
Mmmmm... reminds you of someone else? 50 years before Dragonlance tolkien wrote the same story.
I know it doesn't prove anything, and this is not what I'm saying. It just seems to me more than a coincidence, and it rang some bells, so I went to look for more information about my idea and when I started to read the Sil again I started to build this theory that I brought to you here.

As I said, it is still a baby theory, but it might grow into something big. Anyway, you can't deny it IS an interesting theory

Love,
BluestEye

Thank you for your understanding, Mike B, and if I may, I will add to what you started:

The Istari, as far as I know, are the only New Maiar made by Iluvatar since he made the Old Maiar. Why make 5 new Maiar to take care of Sauron? Why not order some Old Maiar to do so? The answear can be in his putting himself inside this company of wizards and come down to earth to change things once and for all by himself.

BluestEye

 

[Hirila]

Where does it say that Iluvatar made those 5 new Maiar?

As far as I know they have been there from the beginning! As the Maiar of Manwe (Olorin), Aule (Curunir, "Sauron"), Yavanna (Radagast)and whoever the blue Istari belonged to.

 

[Goro Shimura]

There is a letter where someone asked Tolkien if Gandalf was supposed to be an analog of Christ.

He was horrified by the idea: Christ and Gandalf are both (whether real or imaginary) heavenly beings that become incarnated into actual earthly bodies and experience pain, hunger, etc. -- BUT Tolkien considered Christ's meaning and purpose to be something of many magnitudes greater in significance than anything Gandalf ever thought of doing or being.

This makes me think that in Tolkiens mind, Gandalf was definitely not Iluvatar.

 

[Hirila]

But Iluvatar is no God who promises those that believe in Him eternity and for the others there is place by the fire. The only analogy to Christian faith is the heavenly plave in Valinor where the elves go to.

But that belongs to another thread...

But, though I don`t believe it, there is the possibility that Gandalf was Iluvatar.

 

[BluestEye]

While I was looking for some clues in the chapters concerning the Ents in the Two Towers, I found these interesting paragraphs in The White Rider:

'My name!' said the old man again. 'Have you not guessed it already? You have heard it before, I think. Yes, you have heard it before. But come now, what of your tale?'

A few minutes later Legolas recognizes Gandalf, and Aragorn calls: 'Gandalf!', while Gimli sinks to his knees, shading his eyes.

'Gandalf,' the old man repeated, as if recalling from old memory a long disused word. 'Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.'

Well, it is interesting indeed. Why would Gandalf "Forget who he was?"

BluestEye

 

[Hirila]

You`re right! Yes, I never saw it that way!

He must have thought of himself under another name, as of another person. As if Gandalf had died in Moria and another man with his lokks came out again.

 

[Beorn]

Well, now I jump onto both sides of the conversation:

When Gandalf was given a new body, it is not likely that he was called Gandalf. Remember that he had many names: Lathspell, Gandalf, Mithrandir, Grey Pilgrim. Odds are, he was called Olorin when he was given his new body...

 

[BluestEye]

But why would Gandalf not remember who he WAS before he came back (if he realy CAME BACK and not just went away for awhile)?
This and more, he surely haven't forgot anything about Bilbo, Frodo, Gimli, Legolas and Aragorn, nor about the entire World, so why would he forget his own name?

BluestEye

 

[dgoof911]

Also, remember when he said something about no mortal weapon will harm me now, why would he want to become more powerful than he was before? Meaning if he ewas Illuvater, and he died in Khazad-dum, or his body died, why would Eru of all things, want to come back more powerful? Im not saying Gandalf is Eru, but if he was Eru.

 

[A Ranger]

If Gandalf was Eru almost every mystery that Lord of the Rings presented is cleared but unfourtantly Tolkien said Iluvatar never inhabted adra in one of his letters somewhere.