Khuzdul translation help for “malur”

[per-channas]

This is continuing the findings by 0lorin at https://thetolkien.forum/threads/what-precisely-easterlings-chant.20821/#post-575920 .

The full phrase is:
Kilmîn malur ni zâram kalil ra narag, Kheled-zâram. Balin tazlifi.
from the FOTR movie, said by Gimli at 26 min in.

It’s based on this phrase:
Kilmîn thatur ni zâram kalil ra narag, Kheled-zâram. Durin tazlifi.

Which is translated as:
A crown of stars in the cold, black waters of the Kheled-zâram. Durin sleeps.

I’ve surmised that thatur means “stars” (I forget how or where, it may have come to me in a dream and not be correctly identified), so malur is an adjective too since it seems like a simple replacement.

A crown of ??malur?? in the cold, black waters of the Kheled-zâram. Balin sleeps.

Any insights are greatly appreciated! I understand Neo-Khuzdul is a real wild-west situation, but I’m just looking to discern the probable meaning of “malur”.

1st person source for Durin phrase: https://web.archive.org/web/20160423101011/http://midgardsmal.com/durins-song-verbs/

 

[Elhath Reborn]

It seems malur isn't found in the possibly best Neo-Khuzdul dictionary by the Dwarrow Scholar, unfortunately.

 

[per-channas]

Thanks for checking that! Are there any other reliable sources of Khuzdul lexicology that could hold something?

I’ll also try to reach out to the person who runs that site, maybe they’ve got thoughts on what it could mean.

 

[Elhath Reborn]

Gwaith-i-Phethdain still lacks a translation of the dialogue as well.

David Salo, PJ's translator had an online blog called Miðgarðsmál (pertaining to his translations) some years ago, but I have yet to find malur mentioned in the entries about Khuzdul therein.

 

[per-channas]

Great link! Thanks!

I found two possible methods to estimate “malur”:

1. He mentions occasionally borrowing from Elvish languages - maybe they have a similar form that would make sense in this context.

Looks like a close match (maybe others know other similar words) is “malo” from Quenya that means “rust”. I’m not sure of this, Gimli holds Balin in high regard (“my cousin Balin will give us a royal welcome!”) - Durin gets a crown of stars, Balin shouldn’t get a crown of rust. But on the other hand, Balin oversaw the Khazad-dûm collapse (rusting for sure) and maybe Gimli is simply alluding to the state of the kingdom.

2. David Salo mentions “ma-“ as a negative prefix. Maybe “lur” just needs to be found. [edit: thatr/thatur form shows that it’s likely malr/malur form so only “lr” would be the bit if “ma-“ was sliced off, prob not this] ma- is a common negative now so it may have been used then.
Context here from blog:
Pronouns

• ku “who” — suggested by the Indo-European root √kwo-.
• maku “no one” — literally “no who.” The use of a prefix ma- as a negative is a little obscure, but perhaps was suggested by Greek μή mēand Sanskrit mā.

I do wish I was a bit younger and could have just asked him on his blog when it was functioning!

Edit: no, #2 is a no go. (Edit 2: I’ve sussed out that “thatur” is plural for stars, there’s no “of” involved in it directly) “Thatur” which ostensibly means “of stars” and mirrors the form of “malur” prob means the “-ur” suffix is “of …” so we’re looking at a “mal-“ root. (With “that-“ presumably meaning star) I’ll look for thatur at some point soon, maybe there’s info on how it is formed.

 

[per-channas]

Focused on “thatur” I found this

https://thedwarrowscholar.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F142233335814

that explains that “thatûr” is plural - so likely malur is plural as well and the preposition is started elsewhere.

The singular of thatur is thatr so maybe the singular of malur is malr - I’ll search for that base

 

[per-channas]

I’ve found “gold” as “malta” in Quenya or “malt” in Sindarin as another elvish borrow word candidate. Dwarves already have a word for gold “ubraz, n.: gold [√BRZ]” so that’s not it. Rust is the best lead so far

 

[per-channas]

Got ahold of a computer that could search the dictionary successfully, “rust” is in there as “bagl” but it’s not clear where it comes from, maybe “malr/malur” predates that form. The computer did choke on searching for “mal” beginning so didn’t get through that.