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Lambe Valarinwa & Letter 211

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Apr 19, 2002
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From the time of Lost Tales up to Lhammas of the 1930s the Valar had a spoken language, In the latter the elvish languages were Valarin in origin. In Quendi and Eldar written between 1956-60, Pengolodh makes clear there is no doubt that the Valar had their own language. I do not recall reading anything outside of this statement below, which says the Valar did not have a language of their own.

But now this is puzzling:
Letter 211
Since the Valar had no language of their own, not needing one, they had no 'true' names, only identities, and their names were conferred on them by the Elves, being in origin therefore all, as it were, 'nicknames'...

Also, Pengolodh points out that the Valar had Valarin names.

I discovered this quote from Letters when someone in another thread posted it awhile back. When I told him about Quendi and Eldar he hadn't read it and couldn't explain the statement in the Letter. It has bothered me since.
 
Tolkien liked to 'tinker'. Helge Fauskanger writes:

'Tolkien's ideas about the tongue of the Valar changed over time. His original concept was that Valarin was the ultimate ancestor of the Elvish tongues - that Primitive Elvish arose when the Elves attempted to learn Valarin from Oromë at Cuiviénen (see LR:168). This idea was later rejected; in the published Silmarillion, the Elves invented speech on their own before Oromë found them. For a while, the entire concept of a Valian language was abandoned: In 1958, in a letter to Rhona Beare, Tolkien stated that "the Valar had no language of their own, not needing one" (Letters: 282). But soon after, in the essay Quendi and Eldar from about 1960, the Valarin language reappeared, though it was now conceived as being very different from the Elvish tongues and most certainly not their ancestor (WJ: 397-407).' ~HF

'Quendi and Eldar is extant in a typescript with carbon copy that can be fairly certainly dated to the years 1959-60 (ibid.); and both copies are preceded by a manuscript page ... ' ~WOTJ

¤
 
Ah... Embarassing... I saw 1959 as 1956.

Thanks Cian.

Do you know if this idea of the Valar having no language of their own is implied in any way in any text in HoME?
 
I find the notion of the Valar not 'needing' language intriguing, and also more believable than that they communicated through verbal speech. Indeed, as I understand it they only took physical form in order to either fulfill their duties in Arda better (Oromë hunting), or to enjoy the arts possible for a physical body (Nienna dancing). Later, when the Firstborn came to be, they took physical form (I assume) in order to better interact with them.

On the other hand, are not the roots of the Eldarin languages a little vague if Valarin is left out of the equation? It is very philological and pleasing to think that the Eldar named things as they saw them, and that their language was that rich from the very start (not like languages of Earth.. the words in the Indo-European language root system often look terribly ugly; but from them have come beautiful words, like cellar door ;)).
 
I find the notion of the Valar not 'needing' language intriguing, and also more believable than that they communicated through verbal speech. Indeed, as I understand it they only took physical form in order to either fulfill their duties in Arda better (Oromë hunting), or to enjoy the arts possible for a physical body (Nienna dancing). Later, when the Firstborn came to be, they took physical form (I assume) in order to better interact with them.
I see what you mean and maybe this is also what Tolkien was thinking when he decided the Valar did not make their own language.

It was sometime between 1951/52 and 1958 that the Quendi came to have invented their own language. I have been unable to narrow it down more than that based on the Coming of the Elves portions of Annals of Aman and LQ. Maybe someone else can?

It is very philological and pleasing to think that the Eldar named things as they saw them, and that their language was that rich from the very start ...
I agree, and do wonder if this was the primary reason Tolkien came to have them make their own language. But even that aside, I think it is pleasing because of what it does for the Quendi as a people... that they were lovers of the art of making languages is a cool part of who they are. It may be (though I can't find anything in HoME about the idea of Valarin being dropped, all I know of is that Letter) that both things were factors 1) Nice to have elves create their own lambe and 2) decided the Valar should not have had a language of their own. This is the main thing I have been trying to figure out recently. I do not doubt that the first reason was one of his reasons, and I expect it was the primary.

It was in 1959-60 That Quendi and Eldar and Osanwe-kenta were written, and it was in the 50s that Tolkien began to write more about spirits and nature of incarnates and Ainur. I think something like this may have happend: he decided he wanted the Quendi to make their own lambe. Then he thought there was no use for a Valarin lambe to have existed. Then he started to give thought to telepathy since he was writing more about spiritual stuff, and decided it must be a pretty big part of things, and then from that had to explain why Incarnates use/make speech if they can communicate without it, and he did so by explaining that bodily forms get in the way of it, and some other things. In the case of men the ability of telepathy is even less than it is with elves, and it is most natural and easy for the Valar even when arrayed, but he wrote about how it is the nature of incarnates to make speech, a necessity for their forms, so the Valar, when in a form like the Children (which is the form they most often took) woud have ended up making speech for those reasons Pengolodh gives.

This is what Pengolodh says on the reasons for why the Valar should have made a language:

From Quendi and Eldar
'Even if we had no knowledge of it,' he says, 'we could not reasonably doubt that the Valar had a lambe of their own. We know that all members of their order were incarnated by their own desire, and that most of them chose to take forms like those of the Children of Eru, as they name us. In such forms they would take on all characters of the Incarnates that were due to the co-operation of hroa with indwelling fea, and otherwise the assumption of these forms would have been needless, and they arrayed themselves in this manner long before they had any cause to appear before us visibly. Since, then, the making of a lambe is the chief character of an Incarnate, the Valar, having arrayed them in this manner, would inevitably during their long sojourn in Arda have made a lambe for themselves.

And he also says:
Even when using bodily forms they had less need of any tengwesta than had the Incarnate; and they had made a lambe for the pleasure of exercising the powers and skills of the bodily form, and (more remotely) for the better understanding of the minds of the Incarnate when they should appear, rather than for any need that they felt among themselves.

...Of course I could be dead wrong and the idea of the Valar not needing their own lambe could have preceeded, and been the primary reason for the Quendi making their own. The fact he did not end up changing it back to Valarin being the source of the elvish languages, might be an indication that isn't so, but I think this is little evidence. It could be he had by then decided he liked the idea of elves making their own language. I'm out of my reckoning and maybe someone who knows can give a better answer.
 

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