Last eastward outpost?

[Ithrynluin]

Unfinished Tales; The History of Celeborn and Galadriel
...Celeborn and Galadriel returned to Lórien, and were welcomed by the people. There they dwelt while the Third Age lasted, but they took no title of King or Queen; for they said that they were only guardians of this small but fair realm, the last eastward outpost of the Elves.

If we take a look at a map we see that Lórien is not the easternmost - there must have be numerous Avarin dwellings far to the east. Though even if we narrow it down to only known elven settlements, Thranduil's halls are still a substantial distance further east than Lórien.

Why do you think Lórien was given this title when it is not in tune with what the maps clearly show?

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

If we take a look at a map we see that Lórien is not the easternmost - there must have be numerous Avarin dwellings far to the east. Though even if we narrow it down to only known elven settlements, Thranduil's halls are still a substantial distance further east than Lórien.

Why do you think Lórien was given this title when it is not in tune with what the maps clearly show?

It may be one of those "errors both major and minor" which Tolkien gave himself the right to "pass over in silence."

Lotho

 

[Arthur_Vandelay]

This may be a long shot, but I wonder if "Elves" is being used in a particular sense here: to refer to Eldar rather than elves in general.

The passage cited in ithrynluin's initial post situates the return of Celeborn and Galadriel to Lorien in the Third Age, after the rise of the Balrog in Moria. Now, as I understand things (and I'm willing to stand corrected here), many Noldor of Eregion fled the forces of Sauron through Moria and settled in Lorien in the Second Age. So perhaps what Tolkien meant was that Lorien was the last eastern outpost of High elves.

I realise that Sindarin princes founded realms among the Silvan elves east of the Misty Mountains in the early Second Age, including Thranduil's father Oropher (and Amroth's father Amdir). Perhaps by 1980 of the Third Age (the year of the disaster in Moria), most of these eastern Elven realms had failed--of course with the exception of the Woodland Realm. Does anyone think that there would have been substantial populations of Sindarin elves in these eastern realms other than those who belonged to the ruling dynasties?

 

[Ithrynluin]

That's a good explanation, Art, if only it stated Eldar instead of Elves.

Now, as I understand things (and I'm willing to stand corrected here), many Noldor of Eregion fled the forces of Sauron through Moria and settled in Lorien in the Second Age.

Yeppers. Many Noldor and Sindar journeyed to Lórien to swell its population.

Does anyone think that there would have been substantial populations of Sindarin elves in these eastern realms other than those who belonged to the ruling dynasties?

Not sure how much good this quote does:

But in the meantime the power of Galadriel and Celeborn had grown, and Galadriel, assisted in this by her friendship with the Dwarves of Moria, had come into contact with the Nandorin realm of Lórinand on the other side of the Misty Mountains. 5 This was peopled by those Elves who forsook the Great Journey of the Eldar from Cuiviénen and settled in the woods of the Vale of Anduin [The Silmarillion p.94]; and it extended into the forests on both sides of the Great River including the region where afterwards was Dol Guldur. These Elves had no princes or rulers, and led their lives free of care while all Morgoth's power was concentrated in the North-west of Middle-earth; "but many Sindar and Noldor came to dwell among them , and their 'Sindarizing under the impact of Beleriandic culture began." It is not made clear when this movement into Lórinand took place; it may be that they came from Eregion by way of Khazad-dûm and under the auspices of Galadriel.

 

[Arthur_Vandelay]

Yeah, that's the problem: it states "Elves." I just thought it possible that Tolkien might have meant "Eldar" here . . . but as you have demonstrated, that wouldn't be right, either, since many Noldor and Sindar did settle in the eastern realms.

Perhaps many of those (Noldor and Sindar) who did settle among the Avari in the east in the early Second Age subsequently returned to western lands again, or were assimilated into the Silvan populations. Perhaps, if this were the case, the Noldor and Sindar who came to Lorinand from Eregion much later in the Second Age did not as readily merge into the Silvan population. Lorien is certainly far more "High-elvish" than the Woodland Realm, although this is due in no small part to the presence of Galadriel and her Ring.

 

[Inderjit S]

Thranduil was pretty secluded and he didn't take much of a part in the affairs of other realms, which were situated far away. Oropher only joined the alliance as a matter of necessity. There had been no communication between Lórien and Mirkwood for some time, and Legolas was only sent to the council because of the loss of Gollum, and it was known that Gandalf, Elrond etc. were firmly embedded in that affair. When listing the main Elven powers that could fight against Sauron, Mirkwood is not included, whilst Mithlond, Lorien and Rivendell are.

The Sindar who joined the Elves of Mirkwood joined for a reason, to return to the peaceful and simple lives of the elves. A lot of the Sindar who went east were Iathrim Sindar so they may have been intrinsically anti-Ñoldorin because of their actions in the WoTJ. They are also described as being "rude and rustic" can such a label be levelled at Círdan and Elrond's folk, and Galadriel and Celeborn’s? Lothlórien would have had a larger Ñoldorin pop. as a lot of Ost-in-Edhil's refugees fled to there and because Galadriel and Celeborn had a lot of them in their following.

 

[Confusticated]

This may be a long shot, but I wonder if "Elves" is being used in a particular sense here: to refer to Eldar rather than elves in general.

I wouldn't call it a long shot, I think it's most likely, one of the simplest explaination.

I just thought it possible that Tolkien might have meant "Eldar" here . . . but as you have demonstrated, that wouldn't be right, either, since many Noldor and Sindar did settle in the eastern realms.

I think that passage can reasonably be taken to mean that Noldor and Sindar ended up among the Nandor in the area that was to become Lothlorien, and not necessarily other Nandorin or Avarin realms. Though any Nandorin realm would have been Eldarin... I don't recall them being excluded from the class of Eldar in any case?

I also think it is important that this pasage comes from a different version of the Galadriel/Celeborn/Lorien tale than the "Elves" passage in question. Even if JRRT had been thinking that Eldar made up a great portion of the population in realms East of Lorien at one point, does not mean he intended that to be the case when he wrote "the last eastward outpost of the Elves". Could be he supposed (at the time) the elves of Oropher were so largely Avarin as not to qualify as a realm of Eldar.

Since this narrative is an offshoot from a discussion on the names of rivers in Middle-earth, does anyone know of the rest of this discussion being published in VT or some such.... if so we may be able to get the date - not that it'll probably be of much use. But on the small chance we can find out if he did imagine Oropher's elves aslargely Avarin at the time he wrote "last eastward outpost", it would give more weight to arguement "Elves" for "Eldar".


But then, if not "Elves" for "Eldar", I'd say it was a mistake of another kind. Maybe JRRT, like the Eldar of Aman, used a word that ment all elves... though he was not thinking of Avari at the time.

 

[Ithrynluin]

The index of names in UT has the following entry for Eldar:

In many other passages Elves used alone implies Eldar

Which further reinforces Art's theory and probably solves this question.

 

[Ardamir the Blessed]

Could 'last eastward' mean 'the last that endured in the east', not 'the easternmost'?

 

[Confusticated]

I think he might have, though I don't believe so. But as long as he didn't view Thranduil's realm as Eldar, and ment Eldar by Elves, it could work too.

 

[Inderjit S]

Indeed, but Thranduil's Iathrim Sindar/Sylvan/Nelyar Avarin was a lot more involved in the middle-eathern affairs then some other possible Elven realms to the East. Well, several Avarin languages were known to scholars, but that was in the S.A and the psedou Sindarin realms under Oropher and Amdir may have amalgamated different tribes of Avari.

Thranduil's realm took a part in the WoTR too, and was attacked by Dol Guldur so Sauron regarded it as one of his "enemies. On Rivendell, not many strangers would know their way to Rivendell or somehow stumble upon it and it was in the north far away (in the late T.A) from the threat of Sauron, the Orkish holds in the Misty Mountains aside, though they seem to have an certain degree of autonomy. Lorien meanwhile had to be more wary and vigilant and so that could have led to an intrinsic distrust of strangers, Rohan and Gondor and many other realms were no worse. Who knows what the Elves of Rivendell would have done if a chance company had happened to visit Rivendell, despite their nobility. The Elves of Lorien weren't exactly gregarious, but which Elves were? The men of Gondor seem to trust Rivendell more then Lorien. Even Eorl was afraid of the queen in Lorien. If Denethor had told Boromir to go to Galadriel not Elrond would he have gone? He, and even Faramir, to an degree, due to their ignorance view it as folly to go there. Plus Boromir knew little about Rivendell and so maybe it wasn't as legendary as Lothlórien, for geographic reasons. Rivendell was also built as an refuge (men, Elves etc.) for anyone who needed it, after the sacking of Ost-in-Edhil, before it was established as the eastern Noldorin post in the place of Eregion so it may have been innately friendlier.

 

[Finrod-Felagund]

Well, I believe you've allready found the answer though you dont seem to know it.

I dont think Tolkien used the definition elves just for fun. I think he actually meant elves. Not eldars, nor Sindar or Noldor..!

As already mentioned, the great elven realms of ME in the third age, were Rivendell and Mithlond. Besides these two we have the Woodland kingdom and Lorien.
The Woodland kingdom was not strong enough to be counted as "One of the big ones", but Lorien was! Especially because of Galadriel, Celeborn and their kinsmen. Not to mention Nenya.

So by telling us that Lorien is the mosteatward outpost, he actually ment "the last elvish barrier" against evil.

Or am I wrong..?

 

[Inderjit S]

The Woodland kingdom was not strong enough to be counted as "One of the big ones", but Lorien was! Especially because of Galadriel, Celeborn and their kinsmen. Not to mention Nenya.

I don't know about their "kinsmen", since as far as I know none of their kinsmen resided there in the T.A. If by "kinsmen" you mean Sindar/Noldor who followed them then yes, as lot of their "kinsmen" did live there. Thranduil's realm was certainly as large, or larger then the other three kingdoms. They had a total population that was less then the population of Minas Tirith and her fiefs, so we could amalgamated their population at being a few thousand, though any guesstimates would fluctuate.

Oropher's kingdom (Mirkwood) was larger then Amdir's (Lothlórien) by far at the time of the last alliance. The Sylvan losses in the Last Alliance were large. The Sylvanic realms then prospered in the T.A and again built up a semblance of the splendour of their former (relative) glory. But the mass exodus after the emergence of the Balrog in Moria and the increasingly bellicose developments meant a lot of Elves left for Belfalas. This haven was set up by a group of Sindar who left Beleriand during the War against Morgoth. I don't know if any Elves of Mirkwood left for the havens, they may have, Legolas refers to the havens as "our" havens (i.e. Sylvanic) but he talks about the "us" Sylvan Elves as an ubiquitous group on one or two occasions, despite their separation. The Elves of Mirkwood would not have been as seriously effected by the fall of Moria as the Lorien Elves, but some may have left because of the appearance of Dol Guldur and other hostile forces some years beforehand and possibly because of the appearance of dwarves close to their kingdom, though the majority of the Moria exiles went to the Grey Mountains, whilst only a fraction went to the lonely mountain under Thráin I, though of course a larger population returned their under Thror after the deaths of Dáin I and Fror. Some may have left simply as a matter of choice and some because of the encroachments of Men in their affairs. They had their own exodus when Legolas set up his own quasi-autonomous realm in Ithilien. But Tolkien refers to the elven-haven in Belfalas as consisting of Sylvan Elves from Lórien.

Thranduil's army, was presumably "too large" for the Orks who attacked Isildur. These Orks were said to out-number the Dúnedain by something like 10-1, and Isildur set out with 200 men, so Thranduil's army must have been quite populous, and you must also bear in mind that he had lost 2/3 of his men in the war, and given the population replenishment in the T.A, their population would have been quite large.

One wonders then at who Elrond means by "us". There was a represenative of Thranduil at the council, but he was there by circumstance.

 

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

I think I may have solved it... or at least made myself look foolish !

It may have to do with the capitilization of Elves. I remember bringing up a thread about this long ago, Tolkien's random capitilization. Perhaps Elves captilized are High Elves and elves lowercased are the Silvan elves...

Hroom boom!

 

[Inderjit S]

It may have been random. Tolkien does not capitalize 'Silvan' in Legolas's speech about the estrangement between the Elves of Ost-in-Edhil and the Sylvan Elves but he does capitalize 'Silvan' when Legolas is telling the fellowship about Lothlórien when they first enter. Tolkien's capitalization is by no means ubiquitous or consistent.

Silvan is usually capitalized in his essay, though they may have been "editted".

 

[Gothmog]

Well Dáin, I think it is a Capital idea anyway.

But let us have another look at the quote:

Unfinished Tales; The History of Celeborn and Galadriel
...Celeborn and Galadriel returned to Lórien, and were welcomed by the people. There they dwelt while the Third Age lasted, but they took no title of King or Queen; for they said that they were only guardians of this small but fair realm, the last eastward outpost of the Elves.

Note that it says of Celeborn and Galadriel "There they dwelt while the Third Age lasted, but they took no title of King or Queen; for they said that they were only guardians of this small but fair realm, the last eastward outpost of the Elves."

Although it was indeed Tolkien who wrote the story. In this quote it is the words of Celeborn and Galadriel that are being reported. No doubt, from the point of view of these two characters, Lórien is the last eastward outpost of Elvish civilisation and culture brought from the Blessed Realm through Beleriand and on to the east side of the Misty Mountains.

I would not say that this is a mistake on the part of Tolkien that he chose to overlook. It was simply how these two characters would see it. The error of this view is easy for us as readers to see from the outside but it also needs to be looked at from the inside. There things would look far different.