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🧝Legolas Fighting The Balrog and Dagor Dagorath?

As a non-linguist I can only wonder and despair at the amount of niggling effort JRRT must have used failing to resolve this "non -issue"!

I am willing to just accept similar "roots" coming from Sindarin and Noldorin as the languages diverge and re-merge with time (The Lhammas: "The names of the Gnomes in the Quenta are given in the
Noldorin form"). I can only imagine that JRRT came to a similar conclusion . . .

As you can tell, all this is "well above my pay-grade"!
 

I (think I) know (some of) your stance with respect to the 1930s collection (as I'm starting to call it),
and I assume you know that The Lhammas does not reflect the in-story history of the Elvish tongues,
being written before the "Great Shift" (as I think some people call it).

I guess I'm wondering about your personal Silmarillion here: given the general historical scenario of
this version of the Lhammas, do you include material that conflicts with author published description (Appendix F)?

With respect to the Elder Days, we are often dealing with posthumously published stuff "versus" posthumously published stuff, but Tolkien imagined a rather notably different scenario here, by
the time Appendix F was finished.

Apologies if you've already given an example (or stated directly) your view about this, but I can
barely recall what I said yesterday about . . . anything? I know I had eggs for lunch though!

Edit: and I also remember responding (recently) to one of your questions with something like:
to try to fully answer that could take a lot of work!

 
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The only requirement I put on my Eldanyare is that it should be consistent with itself. So, there are a lot of areas that contradict the published Silmarillion. I have not checked The Lhammas aginst Appendix F, but I would not expect it to agree, considering the "Great Shift" (assuming I have understood what that is!).

It is above all a reconstruction job, not an editorial one! So any conflicts with LotR are unavoidable because resolving them is entirely outside my "remit". On the plus side, I know that every word in it has been written by JRRT himself, at the one time that he stood any chance of publishing it.

It is also interesting as more of a "set" of documents in combination, addressing different areas, rather then the more "novelistic" approach of the published Silmarillion. It is a fun read!

I short, I did it because the result is sufficiently different to the published Silmarillion to make it worth doing. Hope that clarifies my position.
 
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The only requirement I put on my Eldanyare is that it should be consistent with itself.

Ah I see. Thanks.

And just so that I don't have to keep writing it, some of my following comments are to be read
with "not that you said otherwise" in mind.

So, there are a lot of areas that contradict the published Silmarillion.

Yes for me the constructed Silmarillion is "simply" a reader's version, which although a great gift
in my opinion, is not canon and doesn't form the basis for my PS (Personal Silmarillion).


I have not checked The Lhammas aginst Appendix F, but I would not expect it to agree, considering the "Great Shift" (assuming I have understood what that is!).

I knew Appendix F* was relatively brief, but glancing at it again, it's brief enough that arguable contradictions of actual text (between Appendix F and The Lhammas) seemingly wouldn't amount
to much, at least "number-wise" so to speak.

It's sometimes a bit of an eye opener when looking at . . .

. . . what Tolkien himself didn't actually publish.

Anyway, given our discussion, Christopher Tolkien's statement about the "Great Shift" seems apt here:
"So far-reaching was this reformation that the pre-existent linguistic structures themselves were moved into new historical relations and given new names; but there is no need here to enter that rather baffling territory."



*not that Appendix F is the sole source of information -- information published by JRRT himself I mean -- about the Elvish tongues and their relationships to each other, in any case.

it is also interesting as more of a "set" of documents in combination, addressing different areas, rather then the more "novelistic" approach of the published Silmarillion. It is a fun read!

Drawing from one of your earlier posts, the Eldanyare collection includes: The Later Annals -- Ainulindale -- Ambarkanta -- Lhammas -- second Silmarillion map -- Quenta Silmarillion.

Christopher Tolkien's Silmarillion includes: Ainulindale -- Valaquenta -- Quenta Silmarillion -- Akallabeth -- Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age -- map -- genealogical tables.

Ambarkanta is cool, if short. I think Cuivienyarna is cool in a different way. But anyway I agree with a legendarium that not only includes various internal authors, but various kinds of texts that address different areas. Including Hobbit poetry!

Admittedly my "PS" includes 2 Fall of Numenor tales! But then again, they are different from each other in interesting ways (in my opinion).

( . . . ) So any conflicts with LotR are unavoidable because resolving them is entirely outside my "remit".

You could do this: The Later Annals -- Ainulindale -- Ambarkanta -- Lhammas Quendi And Eldar -- second Silmarillion map -- Quenta Silmarillion. Then, if so, you don't have that Anglo-Saxon guy
(who went to Eressea) recording the history of the Elvish languages . . . so "differently" let's say.

Or you could prefer not to do this, obviously.

Doesn't matter. I get it. I added this part to amuse me.

On the plus side, I know that every word in it has been written by JRRT himself, . . .

I know that too with respect to my personal Silmarillion (here's a good example where you didn't say otherwise). I mean, I guess you're stressing this in comparison to the constructed 1977 Silmarillion, rather than in reaction to my approach -- b'just in case.

. . . at the one time that he stood any chance of publishing it.

I think Tolkien had a good chance of publishing his legendarium after the success of The Lord of the Rings -- though maybe you are referring to something like "Tolkien getting out of his own way" or whatever.

Sorry for cutting that up so much. And thanks for responding.
 
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Ah I see. Thanks.

And just so that I don't have to keep writing it, some of my following comments are to be read
with "not that you said otherwise" in mind.
Understood.
Just to be clear, I am only talking about the First Age here. I do not include the Fall of Numenor, because despite being a passable account it merely emphasizes the obvious fact that there is no corresponding "Of the Rings of Power . . ." to go with the set
Agreed.
Doesn't matter. I get it. I added this part to amuse me.

Yes, I meant the published one, not yours!
I meant that he couldn't have published it without updating it, and with hindsight we know that was never going to happen. A few of many examples: every time he got to Turin (QS, Grey Annals) the text exploded into "large-scale" narrative; he seemingly never addressed the Girdle of Melian "problem" in the Fall of Doriath. Also the Tuor and Hurin stories . . .
Of course there are many more reasons but they can wait
Sorry for cutting that up so much. And thanks for responding.
NP. Thanks for helping me get my money's worth out of HoME
 
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If Elrond And Galadriel Could Fight The Balrog And Destroy It Why could Legolas Not do It? Also Is Dagor Dagorath Cannon or not?
First, when did Elrond and Galadriel fight and destroy a Balrog? Second, Gandalf is pretty clear when he tells the Fellowship, "This foe is beyond any of you." Legolas himself gives a "cry of dismay and fear" and drops his arrow.

Other, more powerful elves did kill Balrogs but at the cost of their own lives.
 
Other, more powerful elves did kill Balrogs but at the cost of their own lives.

Yeah but Ecthelion slew three Rogs!

And later, wasn't in great shape before still killing Mothgog: after Tuor "unswooned" Ecthelion (he'd swooned from a previous encounter), Ecthelion's face was of the pallor of grey steel, and his shield arm hung limp by his side before he took on the Balrog Lord.

And that half-armed, head-pounded, belly-dirked Balrog, only killed Glorfindel by pulling the Elf into the chasm . . . by grabbing his hair! Okay these are "early" Balrogs! But I'm trying to get the most out of my recent Book of Lost Tales purchase.

That said, in the update that sadly never occurred, would the scenarios here remain? In other words, as "now" these heroes are presumably going to fight Maiarian Balrogs, would Ecthelion still be wounded (and post-swoon) before killing Gothmog? And would Glorfindel only be slain due to a "chance" grasp at his golden hair?

Or will I stop asking questions I can't answer!
 
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