Long may Gondor wait!

[Ancalagon]

Why did the heir's of Isildur wait for Aragorn before they re-claimed their throne in Gondor? The line in Gondor may have failed as a result of Isildur's actions leading to the rule of a Stewart, but what right had a Stewart to reject a claim to the throne by the King of Arnor in the year 1975?

 

[Valandil]

Gondor actually rejected the claim by Arvedui in 1944-45 (whose father Araphant was still King of Arthedain, by the way - but Arvedui's wife (Firiel) was the only surviving child of the previous King of Gondor, Ondoher. Instead they gave the throne of Gondor to another relative in the Royal Gondorian family line - Earnil, who was also the victorious general who had just saved the land. Earnil was second cousin once removed, from Ondoher. This is probably realistic.

1975 is about the time that Arnor fell - and Arvedui (who was then King) died. That was in the middle of Earnil's reign, so there's no need for Gondor to surrender the throne to Isildur's line in the north at this point.

Another interesting time is in 2050 when Earnur, son of Earnil, and then last King of Gondor, rides off to face the Witch King in single combat - and doesn't return. You might wonder why someone from the north didn't claim Gondor's throne at this time... but remember that by then, Arthedain was no more - and the line of her former Kings were now simply called Chieftains. They had no lands they ruled - only the remnant of a people who followed them. Again - not likely Gondor would hand the throne over to someone like this at that time. Not if they had rejected Arvedui's claim in the previous century.

It's all pretty well spelled out in Appendix A, if you read through it carefully. You'll find some of it in the part on Arnor, and some in the part on Gondor.

 

[Ancalagon]

Apologies for the lapse in time as I have suggested, however why should a Steward reject the claim of Arvedui

 

[Grond]

One really can make this discussion as complex or as simple as one desires. I prefer the simple answer. Monarch's are born with the right to rule but cannot rule if the people whom they are to rule do not allow it. He had the right to rule based on the official lineage but since there was a close relative whom the people loved (because of recent heroic deeds), Arvedui's claim was rejected.

If he had the desire, he could have waged war on Gondor to enforce his claim but I suspect that Arnor was no match for Gondor in that period. A more interesting discussion would be a "what if" had Arvedui's claim been recognized. It seems to me that the joint realm of Gondor/Arnor would have been a much more formidable foe to Sauron.

Food for thought.

Cheers,

grond

 

[Snaga]

I don't know... I've always felt that the Chieftains of the Dunedain of Arnor were tactically lying low, waiting for the right time. If you wanted to advance an argument for this, you would say that the attentions of the Witch-King had focussed on the heirs of Isildur, and it was maybe wise to keep the line of Valandil hidden until 'the time was right'.

I say you could advance an argument, because it doesn't seem like a very strong argument to me!

 

[Gothmog]

but what right had a Stewart to reject a claim to the throne by the King of Arnor in the year 1975?

The Stewart had in fact no right at all to reject any claim and did not do so. It was the Stewart's place to recomend to the council either to accept or reject such a claim. While it is true that the Stewart of Gondor did have the 'chief part' in this rejection it was the council of Gondor that had the final decision and answered Arvedui's claim.

Arvedui could of course have pressed his claim by force of arms. However, had he done so, at best, he would have weakened the very power he needed to be as strong as possible.

As for his desendants not pressing the claim until the time of Aragorn II, it was not the Witch-king who's attention was focused on the heirs of Isildur but Sauron. Had Sauron known that there still existed a heir to Isildur he would have made plans accordingly and there would not be the chance to supprise him when the War of the Ring was in progress.

Even if Gondor had accepted one of the chieftains of the northern Dunedain this would have simply led to Souron concentrating on the destruction of the heir of Isildur before the One Ring could be found and therefore while Sauron himself could not be destroyed.

It was known in Rivendell that Sauron could not be destroyed while the One Ring existed and no doubt Elrond would have counceled the current chieftain with respect to the problem of Souron seeking for them. So until the One was found and there was a chance to see a final end to Sauron it would be foolish in the extreme to call attention to that line which had the best chance not only to unite all enemies of Mordor but to keep that unity after the war should it be successful.

 

[Gordis]

"The claim was rejected. In this Pelendur, the Steward of King Ondoher, played the chief part.
'The Council of Gondor answered: "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only; and we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor."

Actually the council of Gondor was right to rejecvt Arvedui's claim. In both Gondopr and Arnor the heritage was reckoned through the sons only - and therefore Earnil son of Siriondil, son of Calimmacil, son of Arciryas brother of Narmacil II was closer to the throne than a husband of Ondoher's daughter Arvedui.

Moreover Earnil was father-to-son descendant of Anarion, while Arvedui was not. Only after Anarion's line died out (2050), could the Northerners rightfully claim the throne. But by then it was too late for them - they have become a "ragged house, devoid of lordship and dignity" as Denethor put it.

 

[Gothmog]

I did not say or imply that the council were wrong. I only stated that the Steward had not the right to make the decision and did not in fact do so.

However, it is debatable that the council were right to reject Arvedui's claim. To be right takes more than just following custom in such matters. At the time of Arvedui's birth a seer made a prophecy.

From Appendix A:GONDOR AND THE HEIRS OF ANÁRION

'Arvedui was indeed the last king, as his name signifies. It is said that this name was given to him at his birth by Malbeth the Seer, who said to his father: "Arvedui you shall call him, for he will be the last in Arthedain. Though a choice will come to the Dúnedain, and if they take the one that seems less hopeful, then you son will change his name and become king of a great realm. If not, then much sorrow and many lives of men shall pass, until the Dúnedain arise and are united again."

It may be that had the council chosen to accept Arvedui's claim the great realm spoken of might have done even more to thwart Sauron's plans. However, it is also possible that this would have worked against final victory of Men against Sauron as the Heir of Isildur would have been in full view of Sauron and he would then have been in a better position to remove the one person he truly feared.

 

[Gordis]

Gothmog: I did not say or imply that the council were wrong.
I didn't say you implied it., sorry if it appeared that way.
I was replying to the original post by Ancalagon: "what right had a Stewart to reject a claim to the throne by the King of Arnor?"
I still think that the Steward and the council were right.There were laws of succession in Gondor and it was not good to bend them on a whim. Tar Aldarion once did this, because it suited him, and it is clear that Tolkien blames this action (UT). Moreover, it is quite probable that, if Arvedui were chosen over Earnil, Gondor would have been plunged into a civil war right away. And there might have been other possible claimants - Castamir's descendants, who legally had less right to the throne then Earnil, but more than Arvedui.

As for the prophesy...as with all prophesies its importance becomes clear much later - when it proves true. Earnur took no heed of Glorfindel's prophesy, the Council of Gondor disregarded Malbeth's ... it is the way of life.

 

[Gothmog]

Gothmog: I did not say or imply that the council were wrong.
I didn't say you implied it., sorry if it appeared that way.
I was replying to the original post by Ancalagon: "what right had a Stewart to reject a claim to the throne by the King of Arnor?"

No problem it seems that we were both replying to the first post and saying much the same. I just got confused (not an uncommon thing )

As for the prophesy...as with all prophesies its importance becomes clear much later - when it proves true. Earnur took no heed of Glorfindel's prophesy, the Council of Gondor disregarded Malbeth's ... it is the way of life.

So far as the council and the prophecy are concerned, it is true that the council were correct (that is they followed the laws and customs used in Middle-earth rather than the older customs of Numenor) but as for them being right (that is doing what was best for Gondor) is something that we cannot know for sure. according to the prophecy it was the Dunedain that had to make the choice and the Dunedain it was that made it and we do not know if the council was even aware of the prophecy to accept or reject . The people of Gondor obviously agreed with the council in this matter and Arvedui would have made a grave error to have forced his claim against them.

Personally I think that the council was both correct and right in that by following the customs of Gondor and Arnor they also served the best long term interest of both kingdoms and Middle-earth as well. The heir of Isildur was kept hidden and (reasonably) safe until the One was found and Sauron could be finally defeated.

 

[Gordis]

Gothmog: "we do not know if the council was even aware of the prophecy to accept or reject"

We don't know for certain, of course, but I think they were aware of the prophesy. After all, Arvedui has married Ondoher's daughter. I think his bio was well studied by the Council of Gondor right before the marriage. He was not a claimant out of the blue: if they haven't met him in person, at least they knew of him well enough.

Now Arvedui's curious name should immediately attract attention: why was the guy named "Last King"? I think the story behind it became well known, if not grew in the telling.

 

[Gothmog]

Now Arvedui's curious name should immediately attract attention: why was the guy named "Last King"? I think the story behind it became well known, if not grew in the telling.

You could well be right. It certainly makes sense