Lord of the Rings on Prime Updates (Thanks Varking!)

But in general, we can say the series outran the published story? Wouldn't that qualify it as a kind of fanfic?

Squint-eyed Southerner said:

But in general, we can say the series outran the published story? Wouldn't that qualify it as a kind of fanfic?

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Sure, for all I care. I stopped watching after season 5 😆

Other more recent examples, pertaining to Tolkien, are Tauriel and Alfrid, whose last name I am just learning is 'Lickspittle' 🙄

Radaghast said:

Other more recent examples, pertaining to Tolkien, are Tauriel and Alfrid, whose last name I am just learning is 'Lickspittle' 🙄

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Hmm.... Alfrid is in The Hobbit films?

Elbereth Vala Varda said:

Hmm.... Alfrid is in The Hobbit films?

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Yes, he is a sidekick to the Master of Lake-town.

Strange..

As I said before, I have never actually watched them. I have read the book, and it is wonderful, and watched The Lord of the Rings movies which I also loved, but that is intriguing. I have also heard that Galadriel is in The Hobbit movies, while her presence is not in The Hobbit, is this true?

Yes, she appears at the last meeting of the White Council, and the attack on Dol Guldur -- which features a love scene between her and Gandalf. 🙄

Okay-- that is odd. There was no love between her and Gandalf-- especially because since practically always she loved Celeborn.

They tried to bring in a few things from the appendices somehow.
But that's all secondary, because it's primarily a jump 'n run computer game that you don't play yourself, but where you just watch others play. It's just something for 12 year old boys.

Radaghast said:

whose last name I am just learning is 'Lickspittle'

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They must have taken their cue from Grima Wormtongue.

Squint-eyed Southerner said:

features a love scene between her and Gandalf

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Just like the romance between that "sexy" dwarf and Tauriel, this was a stupid lore deviation in favor of the zeitgeist, and that's exactly how you'll see it in today's fantasy series (including RoP) in 10 years (if you don't already see it today)....
Unfortunately, more and more nonsense is added, which is why I can almost no longer watch modern productions. (I'd rather watch series and movies from the 80s again, because at least only the hairstyles and CGI effects sucked back then. 😏)
But let's stay with this example: A production for a mass audience supposedly can't do without love scenes or romances, no matter how far-fetched they are. But people and especially fans realize very quickly that this is total crap, so why do they do it anyway?
Probably because some stupid consultants and highly paid advertising psychologists believe that you can do more business that way. But are there any facts and figures that actually prove this? Maybe it's true on average, but for certain book adaptations, especially children's and/or fantasy books, this recipe just doesn't work.

Hearing about this 'love scene' between Gandalf and Galadriel is very disappointing. I loved The Lord of the Rings movies, and as I have said I never watched The Hobbit films yet, however this makes me both inclined to not, and to.

To not, because it seems so far from the true story.

To, because I am curious about how many things are inaccurate, and I am anxious to make my own analysis of it.

I'm honestly torn.

Elbereth Vala Varda said:

Hearing about this 'love scene' between Gandalf and Galadriel is very disappointing.

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Well, that "love scene" between Gandalf and Galadriel is not quite that disastrous. It's actually just a minor thing, and you can theoretically interpret it differently.
The films have much worse problems than this trivial scene.

As already indicated, one of the main problems is that there are far too many moronic action scenes that completely contradict physics and are, in principle, also totally boring - just like watching someone play a computer game. But that's also due to the zeitgeist of that time, when it was "cool" to show superheroes beating each other up for what felt like hours across the galaxy without anyone taking any serious damage. This started at the latest with such nonsense as "Batman vs. Superman". One of the dumbest movies ever. Who likes something like that? 😫
(But what am I talking about "of that time", it's actually only gotten worse today).

It's just the way it is: mainstream blockbusters nowadays don't have the slightest level of quality or ambition, apart from a few exceptions such as the last Dune film adaptation, but since it was only the beginning so far, you have to wait and see how it will turn out. With the Hobbit trilogy, the beginning was also pretty okay.

Unfortunately, most people still seem to gobble up whatever garbage is put in front of them, otherwise we wouldn't be seeing such a steady loss of quality.
And for these reasons, I vehemently oppose any crap that is put in front of me, especially when it involves adaptations of sacred works like Tolkien's books.

Elbereth Vala Varda said:

I loved The Lord of the Rings movies

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I thought they were awful at the time as well, how could they be otherwise, but in retrospect, from today's perspective, they are almost true to the books. 🤣
But I can kind of understand it if you like the movies and didn't read the books or know the pictures of Alan Lee and John Howe before.

Well, I still can't watch them anymore, especially the last part. Compared to the books, it's all just terribly bad.
And still much better than what I've seen so far in RoP teasers, trailers and interviews... 🤮

Still, I'm going to force myself to watch at least the first three to five episodes. The facts and images that have already been presented have unfortunately completely destroyed any chance of still somehow enjoying it. The only hope left is that it will at least be a good, unintentionally funny parody. The odds are already very good for that.



So - have fun with this abomination... er desecration... er I mean show or "the mega-event series that could only happen now"! 🥳

Annatar said:

I thought they were awful at the time as well, how could they be otherwise, but in retrospect, from today's perspective, they are almost true to the books. 🤣
But I can kind of understand it if you like the movies and didn't read the books or know the pictures of Alan Lee and John Howe before.

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It actually isn't so for me. I had never seen a depiction of anything The Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit, when I read the books, formulating my own ideas of the characters in my head, and shortly after or during (I cannot quite remember) I watched the films. I loved them, honestly-- and while I did not think of them as accurate and true, I appreciated them very much so.

Obviously, nothing compares to the books, nor ever can, nor ever will, nor ever has; but I enjoy the things I have seen from The Lord of the Rings movies very much, but hearing this, I am a bit skeptical about The Hobbit films, as it may be just a bit too fabricated for me.

Elbereth Vala Varda said:

but I enjoy the things I have seen from The Lord of the Rings movies very much, but hearing this, I am a bit skeptical about The Hobbit films

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In that case, you would probably like the Hobbit films at least to some extent, even if not as well as the LotR films.
You don't seem to have anything against PJ's style in general. The Hobbit films are basically in the same style, but the story is just completely bloated and filled with more fanfiction and even more pointless idiot action. But there was already enough such action-scenes in the LotR adaptation, such as shield-skateboarding Legolas or green, billowing ghosts in the Pelennor Fields.
There's a lot more of that in the Hobbit trilogy, but if you can live with that, it shouldn't be a problem for you, unless your personal limit is reached when Galadriel and Gandalf give each other a few compliments. 😉

Although the Hobbit movies are objectively worse, I was able to enjoy them even more than the LotR movies because I had very low expectations.

Annatar said:

I'm not aware of any such case. On the other hand, I don't know of a single case where the source material and rights situation is so absurd.

But I'd have some ideas what you could do, and even include diversity without violating the canon:

For example, a separate sub-plot in Harad. It's about a city that is to be subjugated by Sauron. A few (including the original king/mayor or whatever) resist, but end up succumbing to the intrigue and power plays, so some end up allying with Sauron and others with the (Black / King's Men) Numenoreans, etc.
Neither alternative would be particularly nice for the populace, but it would give Bezos his Game of Thrones series with all its intrigue and villains on all sides...

Or a sub-plot in Rhun with the Blue Wizards, who instigate uprisings against Sauron there through clever interventions...

(And of course, it would be just as moronic to randomly cast the original population of Harad or Rhun with actors who are clearly of European descent. That would be just as immersion-destroying as what Amazon is doing now.)

Under the given circumstances, I think it would have made even more sense to rely completely on fanfiction that plausibly integrates into Tolkien's world, instead of altering well-known characters like Galadriel, Miriel, Elrond, etc. to such an extent that it hurts.

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Let me just say that I absolutely love your ideas! They sound so intriguing! Plus, they show how it would have absolutely been possible to implement Big River's diversity policy without undermining existing characters, timelines, plots, etc. Take notes, JB!

Squint-eyed Southerner said:

Yes, she appears at the last meeting of the White Council, and the attack on Dol Guldur -- which features a love scene between her and Gandalf. 🙄

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A love scene? That was simply her healing powers to prevent him from fading.

Elbereth Vala Varda said:

There was no love between her and Gandalf-- especially because since practically always she loved Celeborn.

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You are right.

Elbereth Vala Varda said:

To not, because it seems so far from the true story.

To, because I am curious about how many things are inaccurate, and I am anxious to make my own analysis of it.

I'm honestly torn.

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The Hobbit movies, in my opinion, weren't so disappointing as some put it. However, I watched the Hobbit movies before LOTR - thus, a reversal may deem the Hobbit movies to seem slightly disappointing, in that sense.

But how would you e'er know, without watching it thyself?

Why does this idiot keep saying she's going to be the first female dwarf on screen? Did someone tell her to say it or does she honestly believe it?

Isn't there a female Dwarf in The Hobbit films?

There are indeed female dwarves shown in The Hobbit movies. Also, there are two female dwarf characters in The Huntsman: Winter's War.

Thanks for the clarity-- I thought I had remembered seeing them in a trailer or something.

Radaghast said:

Why does this idiot keep saying she's going to be the first female dwarf on screen? Did someone tell her to say it or does she honestly believe it?

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I somehow doubt she got it on her own, I suppose she was told that by the creators.

Let's ignore for a while the actual veracity of the claim -I think it's a significant red flag that they care about it so much and herald it as something truly great. (For clarification, I don't mind having a female dwarf in TROP in itself.) And since they obviously do, I find it somewhat improbable Dísa will be a great character. It's not impossible, but not likely, given how we humans tend to operate.

There is strong propensity in us to go in the way of least resistance. It's not unbreakable rule of the universe, just a tendency - but a fairly strong one, I believe. In some respects, it even makes sense. If you can achieve a goal with certain amount of energy, using more energy can be wasteful. Our bodies aim at efficiency, and so do our minds, oftentimes.

If your boss or your teacher give you an assignment, and you know you can accomplish it with certain amount of time and effort, will you spend more time and effort to make the result even better, when you have already achieved what was asked for? Maybe you will (and that's commendable), but I would say most people probably won’t. Why bother, they have done what was needed. And even out of the (relatively) few who will make extra effort, most will probably not sweat too much. They might try to improve the result a little, but not, say, double the time and energy to make it super duper awesome.

This is just how things tend to be in our world. So, let’s apply it to character writing. The goal is obviously to make a great character. And since they’ve decided to have (supposedly) a first female dwarf ever on screen, which is described as awesome just in itself, it means the goal is already accomplished in her case. "Having first female dwarf is great, I have first female dwarf, I have great character." So, will they make extra effort to make her interesting in other respects? Maybe, but I wouldn’t bet on it. It is not impossible, but general human tendency suggests otherwise to me. Therefore my hopes are quite low.

arivista said:

This is just how things tend to be in our world. So, let’s apply it to character writing. The goal is obviously to make a great character. And since they’ve decided to have (supposedly) a first female dwarf ever on screen, which is described as awesome just in itself, it means the goal is already accomplished in her case. "Having first female dwarf is great, I have first female dwarf, I have great character." So, will they make extra effort to make her interesting in other respects? Maybe, but I wouldn’t bet on it. It is not impossible, but general human tendency suggests otherwise to me. Therefore my hopes are quite low.

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She doesn't even talk about the quality of the character, only how progressive she believes it is. For her it's about redressing balance, whatever that means. The goal of the showrunners seems overall to be diversity for diversity's sake, logic (and probably story) be damned (also, by most accounts, she's not going to be in in much).

As for hope for anything, that doesn't apply to me since I quit Prime a while ago (for various reasons). I will follow through episode reviews and synopses.