Maeglin vs Snape

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

A lot certainly can be attributed to the worldviews of Tolkien and Rowling. It does make a difference in the themes and morals-- the variability within the work being dependent on the author; hence we read something as "good" or "bad" because our worldview may be similar, different, or the worldview is just universal. Now, this is all very philosophical and flounders into what Ent would call the Religion of Opinion. And, unsurprisingly, another successful derailment of a thread from the actual topic has taken place! TTF, Part 103802893. 😂

I didn't derail my own thread this time though!
(Although I've done it before...👀)

 

[Alice]

A lot certainly can be attributed to the worldviews of Tolkien and Rowling. It does make a difference in the themes and morals-- the variability within the work being dependent on the author; hence we read something as "good" or "bad" because our worldview may be similar, different, or the worldview is just universal. Now, this is all very philosophical and flounders into what Ent would call the Religion of Opinion.

I agree with most of what Tolkien said. But I don't agree with everything Rowling says. Actually I consider marauders, Potters and Dumbledore awful people with no redemption. While she certainly doesn't view them as bad.
It does not make her books bad, though. But I am allowed to choose favorite characters, regardless of what author thinks

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

I agree with most of what Tolkien said. But I don't agree with everything Rowling says. Actually I consider marauders, Potters and Dumbledore awful people with no redemption. While she certainly doesn't view them as bad.
It does not make her books bad, though. But I am allowed to choose favorite characters, regardless of what author thinks

While people live, there's always hope for redemption. ☺️ Tolkien understood this. Rowling misses it.

But Favorite characters are favorite characters. And the Religion of Opinion will always remain.

 

[Alice]

While people live, there's always hope for redemption. ☺️ Tolkien understood this. Rowling misses it.

But Favorite characters are favorite characters. And the Religion of Opinion will always remain.

Not all people can be redeemed. Voldemort and Dumbledore certainly couldn't be, they both wouldn't want to, they are psychopaths who liked power too much.

My favorite characters aren't necessarily kind people. But as for Snape he was both kind (deep inside), selfless, loyal, responsible and smart. Good character and both a good person.
And I don't see any serious flaws in him or anything really malicious. And I am here to defend him from nonsense like accusations of killing people without proofs or that he wanted Lily as a prize.
He was above such things.
As I said many times, he would get much less hate if he was more attractive

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Looks like we steered away from the main discussion some but are back. Let’s keep it civil TTF fam. Remember we’re allowed to disagree with one another without being combative or uncivil. 😊

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

Not all people can be redeemed.

Not all choose to be redeemed. Some reject the chance to repent, as we see time and time again in Tolkien's works. Morgoth, Sauron, Saruman, and Wormtongue are just several examples of those who were given multiple opportunities to repent, but they chose not to out of free will. Hence, they can never be redeemed because they rejected all chances of repenting. The same can be said about Rowling's characters, but Rowling does not portray such so well.

But as for Snape he was both kind (deep inside), selfless, loyal, responsible and smart. Good character and both a good person.

The reason Snape became my favorite character was because he repented and turned from the dark side. He redeemed himself through his triple agency, ultimately having forsaken the side of evil. (Though I think his demeanor and some of the ways he behaved towards others did not help the perception of him; he could have done better. You have decided the ends justify the means, and again, 'tis the Religion of Opinion.)

 

[Maedhros_Nelyafinwë]

I didn't derail my own thread this time though!
(Although I've done it before...👀)

*cough cough your MBTI topic becoming the origin of the Cloning topic*

 

[Alice]

Not all choose to be redeemed. Some reject the chance to repent, as we see time and time again in Tolkien's works. Morgoth, Sauron, Saruman, and Wormtongue are just several examples of those who were given multiple opportunities to repent, but they chose not to out of free will. Hence, they can never be redeemed because they rejected all chances of repenting. The same can be said about Rowling's characters, but Rowling does not portray such so well.

Psychopaths are those who don't want to be redeemed. They simply don't understand why they would need redemption

The reason Snape became my favorite character was because he repented and turned from the dark side. He redeemed himself through his triple agency, ultimately having forsaken the side of evil. (Though I think his demeanor and some of the ways he behaved towards others did not help the perception of him; he could have done better. You have decided the ends justify the means, and again, 'tis the Religion of Opinion.)

Well personally I call him good because he did good things. I can give many examples when he was saving people. Some of those people were innocent, some were horrible (especially to Snape himself). And he didn't like people to suffer (I don't count him being rude or sarcastic, I mean suffering from something much worse).
He was a good person, but unfortunately serving evil masters most of his life. Yes, I consider Dumbledore's side evil too, in it's own way. The only bad thing Snape did was telling about prophecy. And he redeemed himself from it by telling Dumbledore and asking to protect whole family. And was risking his own life. That was his redemption.
What happens next wasn't a redemption. It was just this monster being manipulative and using Snape's feelings. Snape didn't deserve to be slave to Dumbledore and risk his own life for someone ungrateful like Harry. He deserved a better life where he could do something with his mental health and find a better job than working in Hogwarts (awful place, if you ask me).

So I don't see his story as a so called redemption, which happened years before the first book's events. I consider his story a tragic tale about young guy being used and manipulated and led to his own painful death. And saving people who didn't even thank him for his sacrifices.

And yes, many people he was rude to deserved it and I don't blame him

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

*cough cough your MBTI topic becoming the origin of the Cloning topic*

That's the one!😂😌

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

*cough cough your MBTI topic becoming the origin of the Cloning topic*

The best sort of derailment ever!! Never regret it! 😂

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

The best sort of derailment ever!! Never regret it! 😂

Never! 🦊

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

🦊

By the way, the fox became my third favorite animal for this very reason! 😂 (Horses and cats, if you're wondering.)

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

By the way, the fox became my third favorite animal for this very reason! 😂 (Horses and cats, if you're wondering.)

I know! You said you like to watch videos of them laughing!

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

I know! You said you like to watch videos of them laughing!

I forgot I mentioned this, lol! But yes, I do indeed! Very cute and hilarious. ☺️

 

[Ent]

And yes, you can hate me as much as you want, but I don't see anything bad in Snape's personality.

1. You have a tendency to make glaring assumptions. Who says anyone would "hate" you for holding an opinion? There isn't a human alive who doesn't hold... (many being basically driven by)... opinion rather than facts. and realities. Things are simply not 'black and white'. One can disagree with another without 'hatred' being involved. Clearly.

2. You confuse 'doing bad things' with 'being bad in personality.' I do not believe I said anything about Snape's personality. My reference was to his actions/behaviors. Snape was totally a product of circumstances, in my own "opinion" unable to rise above them. Do I see him as a hero? Not in the least. Do I see him as constantly struggling internally? Absolutely. Do I see him as being a bit tyrannical toward his students? Absolutely. Do I believe that may be a result of his own upbrining or social circumstances? Absolutely.

Inferiority often demonstrates itself by outward aggression... and this defines Snape, a tyrant to those he was able to 'lead' (dominate). That is, in his behavior. In his personality, he was far from a tyrant. He held, rather, somewhat an inferiority complex... thus his outward bravado and aggression toward others whom he could abuse when he held a position or opportunity to do so.

Does this mean I hold Snape to have done many bad things, on a fairly regular basis? Oh yes indeed. At times, he definitely did. NOTE: 'did bad things.' Very different than the product he became, (his inward self, personality, whatever) of his social circumstances.

You see... it's all a matter of Opinion... and you are absolutely correct... we all are able to have our own.

Not something to argue over. Just something to share, with some reasons, for others to evaluate.

Certainly, NEVER a reason for argument or ill feelings.

Note: the above is all based on my initial reading through the series years ago. It MAY be tainted by my memories from the films.. which were, of course, different in many respects. Thus, as I re-read the series, it is being done with a view to improving my understanding of all facets involved. (Sadly, it just didn't hold enough interest for me early on, to go back to it yet. I do so now knowing a different perspective decades later may produce a different overall and specific result.)

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

Thank you Ent. You managed to summarize what I tried to say in several post in one.

 

[Ent]

You managed to summarize what I tried to say in several post in one.

Though Ents say much, they do try to be compact in meaning.
I noted someone along the way someone (other than myself) made reference to The Religion of Opinion.

It was well employed, as the exchange in view highlights The Religion in action splendidly, and will feature in my book when the time comes. (Without associated identities revealed, and with slightly altered details, of course.)

The whole exchange is a classic example.

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

I noted someone along the way (other than myself) made reference to The Religion of Opinion.

It was well employed, as the exchange in view highlights The Religion in action splendidly, and will feature in my book when the time comes. (Without associated identities revealed, and with slightly altered details, of course.)

Aww, I am truly honored to be considered as inspiration in your book, Ent. *Bows* 😌

 

[Alice]

1. You have a tendency to make glaring assumptions. Who says anyone would "hate" you for holding an opinion?

Well I said it happens with most of people who dare to defend Snape. Anywhere, not just here. So I am used to it.

There isn't a human alive who doesn't hold... (many being basically driven by)... opinion rather than facts. and realities. Things are simply not 'black and white'. One can disagree with another without 'hatred' being involved. Clearly.

Fact is that some accusations were left without proofs. My opinion is based on facts. Fact is that Snape didn't do many things haters accuse him of

2. You confuse 'doing bad things' with 'being bad in personality.' I do not believe I said anything about Snape's personality. My reference was to his actions/behaviors. Snape was totally a product of circumstances, in my own "opinion" unable to rise above them. Do I see him as a hero? Not in the least. Do I see him as constantly struggling internally? Absolutely. Do I see him as being a bit tyrannical toward his students? Absolutely. Do I believe that may be a result of his own upbrining or social circumstances? Absolutely.

I said. Two bad things he did was choosing to work for two monsters. The rest was almost harmless

Inferiority often demonstrates itself by outward aggression... and this defines Snape, a tyrant to those he was able to 'lead' (dominate). That is, in his behavior. In his personality, he was far from a tyrant. He held, rather, somewhat an inferiority complex... thus his outward bravado and aggression toward others whom he could abuse when he held a position or opportunity to do so.

Yes I agree. Though he didn't abuse anyone. He just was strict and saying nasty stuff sometimes. I don't consider teachers like him something bad and I explained why. And your friend accused me of defending 'crazy teacher who can do anything to his students' or something like that. If you don't see aggression directed at me and my opinion, it's a hypocrisy.

Does this mean I hold Snape to have done many bad things, on a fairly regular basis? Oh yes indeed. At times, he definitely did. NOTE: 'did bad things.' Very different than the product he became, (his inward self, personality, whatever) of his social circumstances.

What bad things? Being not nice? Being sarcastic? I don't consider it 'bad'. And not good.

You see... it's all a matter of Opinion... and you are absolutely correct... we all are able to have our own.

Yeah, and I don't like when it's implied I am supposed to shut up only because I dare to like a fictional character

Not something to argue over. Just something to share, with some reasons, for others to evaluate.

Yes, and to get more agression for sharing an unpopular opinion

Certainly, NEVER a reason for argument or ill feelings.

Note: the above is all based on my initial reading through the series years ago. It MAY be tainted by my memories from the films.. which were, of course, different in many respects.

Yes. I hate what they did to Snape in movies. I was talking only about book version.

Thus, as I re-read the series, it is being done with a view to improving my understanding of all facets involved. (Sadly, it just didn't hold enough interest for me early on, to go back to it yet. I do so now knowing a different perspective decades later may produce a different overall and specific result.)

Yeah. I've never hated Snape, now I love him. And consider many other characters bad

 

[Alice]

So any of you can go ahead and bully me as much as you want, but I won't let you to make me victim of gaslight. Reread posts if you don't see aggression directed at me. So... no, I won't be manipulated so easily into believing that I was the one who was wrong here. And I explained my point, it was ignored. I asked proofs - it was ignored. So yes, I was right about 'haters' part too. And I've said everything I wanted on that subject, though didn't expect my opinion would be respected. Still someone needs to express such opinion and ignore all gaslight