Maeglin vs Snape

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

It doesn't say he was 'of age', only that he was of 'full stature'. In human terms, you can reach your adult height as a teen, even if you're not 18 or 21 yet. I'm not entirely sure of Tolkien's timeline of events, but I do seem to recall Maeglin was not very old for an elf even when he was killed.

Yeah I think he was just 80 years old when he got there. At least according to what I have known so far.

and it's interesting how people over look this little detail of him wanting to be Turgon's heir.🤔 I'm not sure I've ever read about this before you mentioned it here.

anyways thanks!

 

[Server Room Gremlin]

but I do seem to recall Maeglin was not very old for an elf even when he was killed.

According to Tolkien Gateway, he was 190 years old when he died.

 

[Ent]

Because I consider my opinion correct and based on books

Thank you for clarifying, and in a very nice way.
Regarding this statement, I believe we would all say this. All of our opinions are based on our interpretation of the books and their contents.
Our differences aren't because we (either you or I) aren't reading the books 'correctly.'
We are reading the books based on our interpretations and worldviews of things like what is "good" or "bad".
And we do all have very different opinions of what is "good" or "bad."
That said, we will therefore naturally have different interpretations.

You are certainly welcome to have your opinions. My biggest concern is you kind of insult the others, telling them they aren't basing their opinions "on the books." They most surely are. They are just interpreting the books through their lens...which differs from yours, and also differs from mine.

My lens also differs from yours.
That does not make either of us 'right or wrong.' it just means we disagree.
And we can disagree with compassion and understanding.

For example: I could further explain to you, and give you a demonstration of, why I think it is wrong for Snape to abuse his students, call them idiots, demean them in front of others, etc.

But I will not do so, because I believe it would be pointless. You and I simply have a different underpinning - call it a "philosophy" if you will - for how we come to that judgment - for how we determine what actions by teachers - the things they do - "good" or "bad.."

Also note my wording above... I sand "things they do" good or bad. In other words, I have in view the specific behaviors being used and whether those behaviors (doings) are 'good or bad' - not necessarily the goodness or badness of the whole person.

And trust me - I know the books. Knowing the books word for word fully, does not change an evaluation of specific actions.

By the end of my study of Snape, I may altogether change my opiniion of him. He does indeed need to deal with many things others don't need to deal with, and he does seem to 'repent' as seen in both is behaviors and his words (to a degree). Certainly, he ends up helping in such a way the evil that is Voldemort is at last removed.

So if you'lll give me some time to go through it all again, fully in context, and re-interpret Snape if and as necessary, we may find my opinion mellowed toward Snape a bit, and be having a different discussion.

The ONLY place I cannot make a change at this point, is regarding his behaviors as a teacher. (Or even as a human being.) This is as far as I have gotten in my review of Snape.

No teacher (or person) should behave in that way toward students (or other people,) ever. Especially not when they're as young as 11 years old - but really at any age. Many studies show it is not conducive to training, and can actually be damaging. Snape himself pretty clearly appears to have been damaged by circumstances - and he's 'acting out' because of that. perhaps But it does not give him the 'right' to intentionally damage others. Or discriminate against them, etc. We are solely responsible for what we ourselves do. We are never responsible for what others have done TO us, nor excused from our bad behaviors because of what has been done to us. We have Choice. We choose wisely, or badly, with each step we take, and thing we do.

I'm very sorry you have experienced such teachers. If they were as rude and demeaning as Snape was, in my worldview they were wrong. What they did was, in my view, bad. In the real world, they would not last long as teachers - at least here where I've been educated. I cannot change what I think about this issue - it is based on what I hold to be the truth according to the highest authority anywhere in this world.

So again, given some time, I'll get done with the rest of my analysis, and we'll see what my opinions are at that time - understanding they are still just my Opinions, and just as you are able to hold yours, I am able to hold mine. It does not mean I 'don't know the books.'

So again, thank you for your latest response. Let's just agree to disagree about some of Snapes behaviors, and move on.

 

[Alice]

Thank you for clarifying, and in a very nice way.
Regarding this statement, I believe we would all say this. All of our opinions are based on our interpretation of the books and their contents.

Yes I know. But I won't tolerate when Snape is accused of being a murder or doing evil stuff when it's not supported by the text. I explained why and I explained why he never wanted Harry dead. I take those accusations as an attack on an innocent person.

Our differences aren't because we (either you or I) aren't reading the books 'correctly.'
We are reading the books based on our interpretations and worldviews of things like what is "good" or "bad".
And we do all have very different opinions of what is "good" or "bad."

Yes, I noticed. I have my own ideals of kindness and goodness. And Snape fits perfectly. And yes, such person could exist in real world. I guess there are some like him even nowadays.

That said, we will therefore naturally have different interpretations.

I don't like if such interpretation makes him worse than he really was. So I didn't like an idea of comparing him to Maeglin. They are competely different.

You are certainly welcome to have your opinions. My biggest concern is you kind of insult the others, telling them they aren't basing their opinions "on the books." They most surely are. They are just interpreting the books through their lens...which differs from yours, and also differs from mine.

Not when stating that Lily was his friend. She wasn't and wasn't trying to do what friends usually do. Though... Many people have weird understanding of friendship, as it seems, so they keep justifying her horrible actions.

My lens also differs from yours.
That does not make either of us 'right or wrong.' it just means we disagree.
And we can disagree with compassion and understanding.

I just want to defend him, not other characters. And I will never blame him for stuff he hadn't done.

For example: I could further explain to you, and give you a demonstration of, why I think it is wrong for Snape to abuse his students, call them idiots, demean them in front of others, etc.

I know. Many people think that. I haven't expected you to agree with me that he is a good teacher, though I really think so.

But I will not do so, because I believe it would be pointless. You and I simply have a different underpinning - call it a "philosophy" if you will - for how we come to that judgment - for how we determine what actions by teachers - the things they do - "good" or "bad.."

Yes

Also note my wording above... I sand "things they do" good or bad. In other words, I have in view the specific behaviors being used and whether those behaviors (doings) are 'good or bad' - not necessarily the goodness or badness of the whole person.

For many reasons I don't consider his behavior bad. Not an ideal teacher though, but definitely not the worst

And trust me - I know the books. Knowing the books word for word fully, does not change an evaluation of specific actions.

By the end of my study of Snape, I may altogether change my opiniion of him. He does indeed need to deal with many things others don't need to deal with, and he does seem to 'repent' as seen in both is behaviors and his words (to a degree).

I already stated that he didn't need to 'repent'. He already did it. And I told when and why

Certainly, he ends up helping in such a way the evil that is Voldemort is at last removed.

Sadly, only Voldemort, Snape couldn't fight more evil beings for some reasons

So if you'lll give me some time to go through it all again, fully in context, and re-interpret Snape if and as necessary, we may find my opinion mellowed toward Snape a bit, and be having a different discussion.

You can read different essays on him. There are lots in English.

The ONLY place I cannot make a change at this point, is regarding his behaviors as a teacher. (Or even as a human being.) This is as far as I have gotten in my review of Snape.

What he did as a human being? I see why you call him a bad teacher, but how it affects his behaviors in general?

No teacher (or person) should behave in that way toward students (or other people,) ever.

That's popular point of view nowadays

Especially not when they're as young as 11 years old - but really at any age. Many studies show it is not conducive to training, and can actually be damaging. Snape himself pretty clearly appears to have been damaged by circumstances - and he's 'acting out' because of that. perhaps But it does not give him the 'right' to intentionally damage others.

Who gave others the right to damage him? Why I don't hear such accusations of those who abused him as a child and as an adult? You know, his students have done some unforgivable stuff to him in the third book

Or discriminate against them, etc.

In your opinion Dumbledore had a right to discriminate Slytherin? Someone had to protect those snakes, so Snape was that person. And I don't blame him for that and never will

We are solely responsible for what we ourselves do. We are never responsible for what others have done TO us, nor excused from our bad behaviors because of what has been done to us. We have Choice. We choose wisely, or badly, with each step we take, and thing we do.

He didn't have a choice. He never wanted to be a teacher. Do you remember why he became one?

I'm very sorry you have experienced such teachers.

I am not sorry. They can teach much more than so called 'kind' teachers.

If they were as rude and demeaning as Snape was, in my worldview they were wrong.

It depends.

What they did was, in my view, bad. In the real world, they would not last long as teachers - at least here where I've been educated.

In my world much worse teachers than Snape can last for decades.

I cannot change what I think about this issue - it is based on what I hold to be the truth according to the highest authority anywhere in this world.

Anywhere? I doubt it.

So again, given some time, I'll get done with the rest of my analysis, and we'll see what my opinions are at that time - understanding they are still just my Opinions, and just as you are able to hold yours, I am able to hold mine. It does not mean I 'don't know the books.'

As for teachers I agree. I didn't expect an approval for my defense of him. But I won't let some other people to accuse him of crimes he didn't even consider to commit

So again, thank you for your latest response. Let's just agree to disagree about some of Snapes behaviors, and move on.

Behaviors. Not him being 'awful'. Because he isn't. He deserves respect and I find such statements disrespectful to real people like him

 

[Ent]

Well, I confess. This has turned into a fascinating study, which I continue to probe at.

Maeglin is a bit easier to decipher, I believe, though I'm not ready to speak on it. But I'm coming to see a rather more simplified, unlayered and linear character in view. as I probe the 59 references and context in SIL and Shaping of Middle-earth.

Snape on the other hand, is a very multi-layered, complex figure with a huge variety of involvements and requirements Maeglin never confronted. The 1,982 mentions of Snape and Severus will take quite a long time to work through yet, but study rather than reading reveals a lot more than I had known.

There are even some very real--fake-world reasons he needed to maintain his nasty demeanor toward some of his students, behave in unseemly ways toward 'mudbloods,' appear to be prejudiced toward his own house, etc.

Just imagine positioning yourself as a double-agent against the most powerful person in the world, teaching classes containing students whose parents are tightly in league with that dark person. You simply cannot afford to provide the students any suspiciton at all, you may not be in league with the 'bad guy' as you say you are - else the bad guy will rid the world of you without a thought. (Real-world figures come to mind who throughout history have done, and are still doing today, exactly this kind of thing - and on the least ounce of suspicion.)

No no, there is much to Snape I yet need to sort out. One thing is sure... he paid a terrible price for the decisions he made, constantly. We often don't give him that credit.

Anyway, some day I'll be done with this character study, and need to write a bit on it I think. Can't publish it here... but I'll do something with it.

I'm so glad this whole thing came up... I'm having 'loads of fun.'

 

[Alice]

There are even some very real--fake-world reasons he needed to maintain his nasty demeanor toward some of his students, behave in unseemly ways toward 'mudbloods,' appear to be prejudiced toward his own house, etc.

There is no evidence in the book that he needed to 'pretend' he is nasty towards his student. He was nasty because he could, not because he had to.

No no, there is much to Snape I yet need to sort out. One thing is sure... he paid a terrible price for the decisions he made, constantly. We often don't give him that credit.

Yes. He had a tragic fate.

 

[Ent]

This thread is being locked out of an abundance of caution to avoid inadvertent disturbance of the peace.
Any further discussion on the subject can be done by PM with the original poster.