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Minastir or Telperien??

Sagan369

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Feb 22, 2006
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In 'History of Galadriel and Celeborn' and 'Tale of Years' it states that in 1700 SA, Tar Minastir sends a great navy to aid Gil-Galad in the war against Sauron.
But, according to 'The Line of Elros', Tar-Telperien, the second ruling Queen occupied the throne in 1700. Tar Minastir didn't take the septre until 1731 SA, 30yrs after Sauron was driven out of Eriador.
Who can shed some light on this apparent discrepency?
 
I don't think you can be helped out; Chris' notes to the Line of Elros state:
The date 1731 here given for the end of the rule of Tar-Telperien and the accession of Tar-Minastir is strangely at variance with the dating, fixed by many references, of the first war against Sauron; for the great Numenorean fleet sent by Tar-Minastir reached Middle-earth in the year 1700. I cannot in any way account for the discrepancy.
 
Sagan369, Valandil started a thread on this subject, “Tar-Minastir sent aid to Gil-galad... or DID he?” about 18 months ago. A synopsis of it might be that we supposed tht Tar-Telperion remained on the throne as Ruling Queen, and she made her nephew Minastir a coregent for the purpose of pursuing the war as allies of Gil-galad against Sauron’s forces invading Eriador. There is a Third Age parallel to this: King Narmacil I of Gondor made his nephew Minalcar Regent of Gondor (Karma-kundo, or ‘Guardian of the Helm’), and perhaps that title was one created for Minastir during the Second Age.

Otherwise, as Christopher Tolkien notes, there is a “discrepancy.”
 
Thanks guys, I guess I should start reading those notes at the end of each tale!!:eek:
 
Though the regent idea has a lot of juice, it is safer, in my opinion, to presume that the date of Tar Telperion stepping down, 1731, is wrong, seeing that Tar Minastir is reffered to as king at the time of his sending the fleet:
Tale of years said:
Tar-Minastir sends a great navy from Numenor to Lindon. Sauron is defeated.
Numenor said:
The realm of Numenor endured to the end of the Second Age and increased ever in power and splendour, and until half the Age had passed the Numenoreans grew also in wisdom and joy. The first sign of the shadow that was to fall upon them appeared in the days of Tar-Minastir, eleventh King. He it was that sent a great force to the aid of Gil-galad.
Akallabeth said:
Already in the days of Tar-Minastir, the eleventh King of Numenor, he had fortified the land of Mordor and had built there the Tower of Barad-dur, and thereafter he strove ever for the dominion of Middle-earth, to become a king over all kings and as a god unto Men. And Sauron hated the Numenoreans, because of the deeds of their fathers and their ancient alliance with the Elves and allegiance to the Valar; nor did he forget the aid that Tar-Minastir had rendered to Gil-galad of old, in that time when the One Ring was forged and there was war between Sauron and the Elves in Eriador.
 
Alcuin, you make, as usual, some very good points (I read them before my second post); what I have in mind is that in LotR and Silmarillion Minastir is already given the title Tar, at the times of his action, a title reserved to kings. Moreover, I don't think he could make this decision on his own, during his queen's reign; and if somehow Tar Telperien wasn't in charge, I think it would have been mentioned, just as it happened to Tar Vanimelde and her husband Herucalmo.
 
It’s entirely possible that Telperion remained sole ruler throughout her reign. But I think that the expedition to Middle-earth was such an enormous undertaking, and so very different from anything the Númenóreans had ever before attempted, that she probably assigned Minastir plenipotentiary powers to accomplish it. Whether he had the title “Tar” in front of his name at the time is probably not significant: even he had, he would have been keeping Telperion abreast of his preparations, and she would have remained senior ruler. By the way, I think this means that Minastir commanded the Númenórean force in Lindon personally: he went himself, because Telperion was still in Armenelos.

There are two other things you might bear in mind here. First, Telperion resigned her throne the same year she died. The only other Númenórean ruler to do this before Tar-Atanamir, who refused to lay down his life, was Elros himself. I think that may indicate that either Minastir had already been declared co-regent by Telperion, or else that he was exercising such power within the kingdom that Telperion kept her title as long as she felt she could in order to spite him or remind him that she was the real sovereign. Personally, I’d like to give Telperion the benefit of the doubt and assume that she was wise and far-sighted as would befit one of the early Númenórean rulers, and that she gave Minastir some title or position that was, until that time, unusual in Númenor so that he could do what was required of him to carry out his mission in Middle-earth.

Second, if Minastir were in charge of the preparations and expedition, it would have been “his” expedition, not his aunt’s.

You can assign the confusion to mistakes in Tolkien’s notes. If that’s the case, he sure made the same mistakes over and over again for many years, and somehow, he uncharacteristically failed to notice them. The story makes sense if Minastir were assigned a royal title, or even made co-ruler for affairs outside Númenor, with Telperion maintaining her sovereignty on the island itself. In that case, he would have received his title while his aunt still sat on the throne, but he would not have legally exercised his power on the island of Anadûnê itself until she retired. And the fact the he would undoubtedly have become increasingly powerful after a successful military expedition in Middle-earth that would involved almost every family in Númenor in some way or another might have irritated Telperion, so that she refused to retire.

But it’s also possible that this was a very comfortable relationship for them, and she slowly handed affairs of state over to her nephew until the effects of old age made her finally decide she’d had enough. I really think this explanation makes the most sense: it doesn’t seem that there was any friction between them, or at least we aren’t given any information about it.

Remember, too, that Ciryatan constrained his father, this same Minastir, to surrender the throne before he was ready. This might mean that Ciryatan wanted the same deal his dad got. That caused friction, and Tolkien makes a point of telling us about it.

I think the whole picture makes more sense – the expedition to Middle-earth, the conundrum about the dating of the reigns and the war, and the subsequent falling out between Minastir and Ciryatan – if Telperion and Minastir managed to find a comfortable working relationship, one that was probably unique until Narmacil I made his nephew regent in Gondor almost 3,000 years later. I think it’s a very different situation from that of Vanimeldë, Anducal/Herucalmo, and Alcarin.
 
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An interesting analysis; it would convince me completely, if it wasn't for this passage in UT:
Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn said:
Now for long years the Numenoreans had brought in their ships to the Grey Havens, and there they were welcome. As soon as Gil-galad began to fear that Sauron would come with open war into Eriador he sent messages to Numenor; and on the shores of Lindon the Numenoreans began to build up a force and supplies for war. In 1695, when Sauron invaded Eriador, Gil-galad called on Numenor for aid. Then Tar-Minastir the King sent out a great navy; but it was delayed, and did not reach the coasts of Middle-earth until the year 1700. By that time Sauron had mastered all Eriador, save only besieged Imladris, and had reached the line of the River Lhun. He had summoned more forces which were approaching from the south-east, and were indeed in Enedwaith at the Crossing of Tharbad, which was only lightly held. Gil-galad and the Numenoreans were holding the Lhun in desperate defence the Grey Havens, when in the very nick of time the great armament of Tar-Minastir came in; and Sauron's host was heavily defeated and driven back. The Numenorean admiral Ciryatur sent part of his ships to make a landing further to the south.
It tells us that Tar Minastir was king perhaps as early as 1695, when Gil-Galad called for help; we also see that there was an admiral, Ciryatur, which was in charge of the expedition, not Minastir himself.
 
The problem of Tar-Telperion and Tar-Minastir still exists, and it continues unless you retire Telperion early or kill her off. The passage doesn’t resolve the situation, nor does it exclude Minastir from command of the landed Númenórean force, particularly if he were already ashore to join with Gil-galad along the Lhûn, where Sauron threatened to overrun the Elven ports in what is described as “desperate” fighting. Ciryatur would be a hero in his own right if on his own initiative he sent part of the expeditionary force to Vinyalondë to fall upon Sauron’s rear and disrupt his attack: if the fighting was as bad as Tolkien indicates, that was a very bold move that sounds like many historical accounts of real commanders who saw an opening and took advantage of it in a risky situation. (The initial reaction of a lot of the Elven commanders might well have been, “You did what?! Are you crazy? We need those soldiers here!”)

There is another matter that perhaps you have not considered. Tar-Telperion is named for the White Tree of Valinor, the elder of the Two Trees of Yavanna. You might recall that the light of Telperion and Laurelin mingled twice each Valinorean day as they waxed and waned. I think a co-regency might be a recollection of this mixing of the lights. In Valinor, the tree Telperion had seedlings, and from this line, the White Trees of Númenor and Gondor arose; when the White Tree died, the troubles of the Eldar in Valinor and Middle-earth began. In Númenor, queen Telperion is the elder ruler, but she had no offspring, and after she died (and the mixing of the two rulers ended), the troubles of Dúnedain in Númenor and Middle-earth began. The mixing of the light of the Two Trees was the height of the Bliss of Valinor. I think the mixing of the two rulers Telperion and Minastir was the height of the bliss of Númenor: thereafter, the Númenóreans became more and more restless and unhappy. I think the metaphor of Telperion and Minastir as Telperion and Laurelin is both appealing and compelling.

Perhaps you are correct, and this is a cut-and-dry error on Tolkien’s part. But it would sure leave a lot of extraordinarily beautiful literary imagery in the dustbin.
 

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