My God, It Was Horrible (Part III)

[Morgaphry]

Finally, why on earth would Gandalf and especially the Steward's personal guards stand around watching him burn without at least trying to put him out?

The Citadel Guards had been commanded to incinerate Denethor so when he is burning to death, they would have been executed had they "Put him out" for directly disobeying the Steward's orders.

The Fountain Guards that surrounded the White Tree could not leave their post for any reason. Had the White Tower fallen, they would stay there. had the Witch-King landed in the courtyard, they would not move to challenge him until he was within reach of the Guard's spears.

I'm sure in the book, that Gandalf would have possessed some form of Fire Extinguishing spell particularly as a White Wizard so why doesn't he save him upon the pyre? He knows Denethor has gone mad and will try to kill himself in any manner possible. He is beyond help.

Thanks
Morgaphry

 

[Aldanil]

Oh Well

So much for encouraging humor!

And speaking of "Gibralter"-sized shoulder-chips, Foe-Hammer, there's a certain New Testament aphorism about motes and beams you might want to look into. . .

 

[Foe-Hammer]

Who DOES know the first thing about "fire science"? You?
I know one or two things about chemistry, including the definition that burning, in the normal sense of the word, consists in substances combining with oxygen at relatively high temperatures. The word "decomposing" isn't usually included in the definition.
So, what do you mean about decomposing before burning, and what has that to do with making D's run and jump believable?
It's OK to know science, but you need to make it intelligible to us laypeople.

Well, as a matter of fact, I do. Decomposing, used when discussing fire, is the breakdown of material into it's gasous state. Solids do not burn, only gasses burn. All materials have to breakdown into a gas before combustion takes place. The fumes from the oil burn, thus generating heat. That heat starts the process of decomposing denathors clothing, skin, etc into their gassous state in order for them to burn. Since he was covered with oil, the oil would have to decompose and burn all the way before the materials could begin to decompose enough to burn. So, the more oil, the more time he would have to run and jump.

 

[joxy]

We all know Gandalf was "stuck" in a man's body.

Tolkien's world is not necessarily bounded by the laws of ours.

No, we don't.

But it's Peter Jackson's world we're talking about with Denethor's run. I prefer Tolkien's world.

 

[Foe-Hammer]

Preferring tolkiens world is ok as long as it is consistant. When a npw strays away from that by criticizing PJ for taking the same liberties that jrr did, well that is just plain ole hypocritical.

We have had npw's complain about faces being too dirty, slopes being too steep for horses and now fires are too hot and runs too long. But they don't complain about magic rings, flying dragons, invisible boogy-men who would be more effective if they would just walk around invisible and choke the living crap out of frodo et al.

It would be nice if they would be consistant. But, alas, we are doomed to continually have all discussion end in an exercise in pj hating.

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

 

[Gandalf White]

Preferring tolkiens world is ok as long as it is consistant. When a npw strays away from that by criticizing PJ for taking the same liberties that jrr did, well that is just plain ole hypocritical.

For once I agree with you Foe Hammer!

No, we don't.

But it's Peter Jackson's world we're talking about with Denethor's run. I prefer Tolkien's world.

But PJ's movie is based on Tolkien's world, with some of the events mixed up and confused.

Anyway, I notice you ignored my other two points, addressing only the last one, which you were wrong about.

For with the consent of Eru they [the Valar] sent members of their own high order [Gandalf and co.], but clad in bodies of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain...

Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle-Earth; Part IV; Chapter II: The Istari.

 

[joxy]

Solids do not burn, only gasses burn. All materials have to breakdown into a gas before combustion takes place.

Does carbon vaporize, or sublimate, to gaseous carbon, and at what temperatures?

 

[joxy]

But PJ's movie is based on Tolkien's world, with some of the events mixed up and confused.

I notice you ignored my other two points, addressing only the last one, which you were wrong about.

No-one's going to disagree with you on the first one.

I wasn't wrong: I said "we don't" know that Gandalf is stuck in a man's body.
I am one of "we" and I did not know. Now that you tell me, on the basis of a quotation that was new to me, I do know.

I didn't ignore them; I chose not to weary you with my disagreement with them.
Now, I will.
I don't know the talking sword reference.
Aragorn was of a race of men with a longer lifespan. At 87 he was the equivalent of a man of our race who recently ran marathons on each continent within the space of a few days - he was widely reported.

 

[joxy]

Preferring tolkiens world is ok as long as it is consistant. When a npw strays away from that by criticizing PJ for taking the same liberties that jrr did, well that is just plain ole hypocritical.

Tolkien's world is perfectly consistent within itself, on its own terms; the "faults" are a part of its "secondary creation".
Tolkien can take all the liberties with his own work that he wants to; that's what authors do.
PJ taking liberties with someone's else's work is a different ball-game.
Of course he can do it, he can do anything he wants to; but he can't expect not to be criticised for doing it.

 

[Gandalf White]

I mistook your highly unusual usage of the word "we."

The talking sword is found in the Narn I Hin Hurin, also found in UT.

Anyway, now that you know I was correct about Gandalf's body being human you have yet to defend against it.

I don't think the term innaccurate can be applied to Denethor any longer.

 

[Foe-Hammer]

Does carbon vaporize, or sublimate, to gaseous carbon, and at what temperatures?

Why? Is denathor made entirely of charcoal?

I suggest you put down the chemistry book and learn how fire in the real world works if in fact you are going to demand that PJ make it believable.

 

[Foe-Hammer]

Tolkien's world is perfectly consistent within itself, on its own terms; the "faults" are a part of its "secondary creation".
Tolkien can take all the liberties with his own work that he wants to; that's what authors do.
PJ taking liberties with someone's else's work is a different ball-game.
Of course he can do it, he can do anything he wants to; but he can't expect not to be criticised for doing it.

I don't care about the liberties he took with tolkiens work. My point is that the npw will accept any liberties that jrr takes regarding "reality" but PJ cannot get outside those realities unless jrr did specifically in his book.

IE. Horses. JRR never wrote specifics about what angle of slope the horses of Rohan could handle, but he did write that they were the best in all of ME and that Shadowfax ran like the wind. (never ceasing) Since the ability to run like the wind would be a farther stretch than running down the steep slope of a hill, the logical person would have no problem with it. Tolkien took more liberties with reality than pj did and the npw's blame pj for not being "real" enough.

What a shameful display of hypocracy the npw is capable of.

 

[joxy]

Why? Is denathor made entirely of charcoal?

You said "All materials have to breakdown into a gas before combustion takes place". Carbon is a material; I asked you the details about carbon.
Denethor is not relevant to the question, but if you won't answer without relevance to him, then I must mention that carbon is a constituent element of the combustible parts of the body.

 

[joxy]

....your highly unusual usage of the word "we."

The talking sword is found in the Narn I Hin Hurin, also found in UT.

....about Gandalf's body being human you have yet to defend against it.

I don't think the term innaccurate can be applied to Denethor any longer

My usage of the word "we" was the USUAL one: it refers to the person who uses it and to one or more other people; who those other people are is not relevant. You claimed that "we all" know about Gandalf; I was one of that "we"; I didn't know, then.

To the extent that Tolkien retained his view of everything in the books that were compiled and issued after his death, the talking sword is then part of his "secondary creation". It is valid in the terms of its "sub-creator", and therefore must be accepted in that context, whether anyone likes it or not.

The reservation regarding the posthumously produced works still applies, but first, I prefer to regard TLOTR as a sub-creation
in its own right, without reference to any other works, and independent of them, and second, the same point about the inherent self-consistency of anything within the sub-creation applies.

You mean by your last comment, that it is no longer reasonable to criticise Pj's account of Denethor's death on the grounds of its unlikelihood in physical terms? I stay with my reply: there is a big difference betwen the world "created" by an author, and the "liberties" taken by someone else with that world.

 

[joxy]

....running down the steep slope of a hill, the logical person would have no problem with it.

What matters is that the downhill charge scene still looks absolutely ridiculous, and that it is a "cop-out" as a way abruptly to end the dramatic battle.

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

I didn't like how Denethor ended up on the pyre, his run and consequent fall bore me no problems.

Is this the same way it's innaccurate and unbelievable to have a sword speak to a person with an actual voice?

Is this the same way it is inaccurate and unbelievable to have an 87-year-old man who is able to run approximately 13 leagues a day, for several days in a row?

We all know Gandalf was "stuck" in a man's body. He fell off the bridge in Moria along with the Balrog and the Balrog's fire burned him on the way down. He didn't die. They fell for a long, long time, so the impact of his body hitting the water should have killed him instantly. No! Since that didn't happen, the frigid temperature of the water should have stopped his heart. It didn't.

Tolkien's world is not necessarily bounded by the laws of ours.

Both Aragorn and Denethor are of the blood of Numenor which means that they age slower and live longer than other men. Therefore, Aragorn at 80 is what another ordinary man would be at less than half that age (he dies at over 200 years of age, after all). Furthermore, he has lived a life of severe physical and mental discipline and action. Many people who take care of themselves and exercise are able to perform feats of strength and endurance greater than other less active folks half their age (Jack LeLanne is one example). So Aragorn has not only his bloodline but his lifestyle to fall back on in his dash across Rohan. Denethor, on the other hand, (in the film, at least) obviously is not nearly so much of an aesthete or a man who spurned food and practiced physical discipline. Furthermore, he was on fire - which, I would surmise, would have adversely affected even the tough, well-conditioned Aragorn.

As for Gandalf, yes, his "human" body was a means to curtail his power and thus were all the Istari burdened when they were sent into Middle-earth by the Valar. This limitation was to prevent them "taking over" once they arrived. Of course, it didn't slow down Saruman very much, but certainly Gandalf was influenced by his physical limitations until his "rebirth" after Moria.

It is true that Tolkien's world did have some differences, but not all that many - especially as he meant Middle-earth to be this world, not some fairy-land like Oz.

 

[Gandalf White]

But what about Gandalf being burned on the way down? You know he had the body of a man and make no comment about his burning, falling, or sudden temperature change while belittling Denethors little sprint.

I stay with my reply: there is a big difference betwen the world "created" by an author, and the "liberties" taken by someone else with that world.

What I gather is that PJ is not allowed to take any liberty not explicitly written by Tolkien, even though it may be implied.

 

[joxy]

But what about Gandalf being burned on the way down?
What I gather is that PJ is not allowed to take any liberty not explicitly written by Tolkien, even though it may be implied.

Gandalf says he was burned. Of course his book fall was rather different from that in the film - which I happen to think is one of the best visual effects of the whole enterprise.
I said that PJ's liberties are a different matter from T's liberties, which, as they are with his own work, are not liberties at all.
I did NOT say what he is not "allowed" to do - clearly he has a free hand to do anything!
However, I think that, in a set of films in which time is a severe limitation, which makes it essential to omit a lot of material which is explicitly written, it is reasonable to expect that anything that is only implicit should be included sparingly, and, of course, that any total inventions should be kept to an absolute minimum. Neither of those two expectations is realised in these films.

 

[joxy]

an exercise in pj hating.

I've seen that word "hating" before, and I still object to its use, more strongly than ever. It is both offensive, and ridiculous.
"Hate" is a very nasty thing, that I'm quite sure no-one here would ever indulge in. The idea of "hating" something as trivial
as a film is indeed absurd.

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

Gandalf says he was burned. Of course his book fall was rather different from that in the film - which I happen to think is one of the best visual effects of the whole enterprise.
I said that PJ's liberties are a different matter from T's liberties, which, as they are with his own work, are not liberties at all.
I did NOT say what he is not "allowed" to do - clearly he has a free hand to do anything!
However, I think that, in a set of films in which time is a severe limitation, which makes it essential to omit a lot of material which is explicitly written, it is reasonable to expect that anything that is only implicit should be included sparingly, and, of course, that any total inventions should be kept to an absolute minimum. Neither of those two expectations is realised in these films.

Gandalf was burned - NOT burning! There is a difference. We don't know how severely he was burned, but he was still clothed when he reached the mountaintop, so it certainly could not have been anywhere near as bad as Denethor's conflagration! One may run, walk or swim quite a while when one is burned - as long as one's breathing passages have not been severely compromised. I cannot imagine Denethor (head and beard soaked with oil) being able to breathe more than a few seconds under such circumstances.