Of Amarië and Finrod Felagund: An obviously well-loved 👑King.

[Beleg]

Finrod Felagund: An obviously well-loved King.


Finrod Felagund: An obviously well-loved King.
The greatest of the Kings of his Generation. Thus Greater then Fingon and Meadhros
He was a pretty fine lover too, never forgetting his loved one sitting way back in Aman.

Behind this leaguer from the Sea to Eryd Luin the wide countries of Beleriand, west and east of Sirion, were held in this wise. Though Fingolfin of Hithlum was overlord of all the Noldor, Inglor, well-beloved of all Elves, became indeed the greatest prince in the land. For King Felagund he was in Nargothrond, whereas his brothers Angrod and Egnor were lords of Dorthonion and his vassals; and he had also a fort and place of battle in the north, in the wide pass between Eredwethrin and Dorthonion through which Sirion flowed south. There stood an isle amid the river, and upon it Inglor built a mighty watchtower: Minnas-tirith: and there, when Nargothrond was made, he set Orodreth as warden. But upon either side of Narog all the folk of either race that dwelt in the lands took him for their lord, as far south as the Mouths of Sirion, and from Nenning in the West to the borders of Doriath eastward. But in Eglarest, and west of Nenning to the Sea, Círdan the Shipwright |was lord, yet ever he was close in friendship with Nargothrond.

Thus perished Inglor Felagund son of Finrod, fairest and most beloved of the children of Finwë, and returned never again to Middle-earth. But it is said that released soon from Mandos, he went to Valinor and there dwells with Amárië.

But it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled him; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amárië of the Vanyar, and she was not permitted to go with him into exile.

Two Quessies,

Question: By whom was Amárië restrained? By Vanyar? But if she really loved Finrod that she could have gone with him or joined the exiles? The statement implies that she didn’t refuse to go with Finrod due to her own will, and then who restrained her? Could it have been the Valar? But weren’t Valar not supposed to interfere in the matters of the Children? Wasn’t Amárië free to choose what she wanted for herself? Has Tolkien anywhere told the reason why she was restrained and by whom she was restrained?

With '[Felagund] dwells now in Valinor with Amárië' cf. QS I (V.300): 'But Inglor walks with Finrod his father among his kinsfolk in the light of the Blessed Realm, and it is not written that he has ever returned to Middle-earth.' In Version II (§199) it is said that 'released soon from Mandos, he went to Valinor and there dwells with Amárië.' It has been told in the annal for 102 (§109) that 'she whom [Felagund] had loved was Amárië of the Vanyar, and she was not permitted to go with him into exile.'

Note the above statement is the commentary of C.T in the Chapter the Grey Annals.

My Question is why was he released from Mandos soon? Was their any merit according to which Elves were released by Mandos? Can someone explain in detail the whole procedure of release from Mandos? So the elves that died heroic deaths saving others were released earlier because Mandos took pity at them? Finrod’s case is here, Glorifindel’s case is here? What are your thoughts?

 

[Ithrynluin]

Re: Finrod Felagund: An obviously well-loved King.

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
My Question is why was he released from Mandos soon? Was their any merit according to which Elves were released by Mandos? Can someone explain in detail the whole procedure of release from Mandos? So the elves that died heroic deaths saving others were released earlier because Mandos took pity at them? Finrod’s case is here, Glorifindel’s case is here? What are your thoughts?

He committed no evil deeds, he was selfless and died for the benefit of others. Unlike Fëanor who will not be released from Mandos ever, and Aegnor who refuses to exit for Andreth's sake.
You could say that the length of time spent in Mandos depends on one's deeds - more evil the deeds, more time spent in the halls of Namo.

 

[Confusticated]

For there was, for all the fear of the Dead, a time of Waiting, in which, howsoever they had died, they were corrected, instructed, strengthend, or comforted, according to their needs or deserts. If they would consent to this.

That is from Morgoth's Ring.

It is also said at least once that Elves can not be restored if they have any mailce towards any of the living. I can not find the quote but it must be in the Athrabeth or perhaps in PoMe associated with the Glorfindel essays.

And as ithrynluin has pointed out, evil deeds will keep a person in Mandos longer. The elf must repent of these evil deeds before he/she will be released. That is also found along with the bit about harbouring malice.... wherever that is?

It seems the elves stayed in Mandos until they were healed or corrected, and this would be different for each elf. I guess it was a combination of two things: 1) does the elf deem that he is ready for life again and 2) does Namo deem this is true and that it is deserved.

Finrod was about as innocent as they came (at least among the exiles), and he also died fighting a werewolf, rather than spending years in torment. He plainly had a good heart, and even in his dying moment he seemed content. He did not express anger or malice towards anyone.

I would assume that because he died apparantly without malice, he had no malice to overcome in Mandos. He was rather optimistic concidering the circumstances of his death. It could be that he had foresight that prevented him from despairing, or probably he was wise enough.

What griefs did he have other than any general grief that all might have had because there was war with Morgoth? I would say he suffered less than many others in Middle-earth, even if maybe in part because he was strong of heart and high and strong of spirit, which I would attribute in part to his wisdom.

Also, we have that Finrod's beloved Amarie and his parents were still alive, giving him reason to want to return to life. But surely this would have applied to many of the dead.

I think he was just good to when he got to Mandos, or very shortly thereafter. He may have stayed awhile to reflect on things, or do recover from the trauma of death, which probably didn't take long for him.

Beleg, I know you've read the Athrabeth, but if you haven't yet, try the Glorfindel essays in PoMe, and Later Quenta of Morgoth's Ring... though portions of it, that about rebirthing, was later changed, which you will already know from reading Athrabeth.

About Amarie, I haven't read WotJ, but when I found the mention of Amarie not being 'permitted' in PoMe, I did glance through Grey Annals and Later Quenta in to see if more was said. I didn't find anything though, and I do not know of any more information about this.

I admit it has entered my mind that maybe it was Finrod that would not let her go, but again, how could he have held her back? He might have talked her out of it, but then I would expect that to have been said rather than that 'she was not permitted'.

The Valar told her not to go, but why would they? As Beleg has pointed out, they shouldn't restain anyone from leaving. It could be that they advised against it, but again, that wouldn't fit with 'she was not permitted'.

The best reason I have come up with is that maybe Amaire was just a good little Vanya and did not want to go against her family's wishes. That is was more important to her than going with Finrod (In which case I can not fathom how great her family must have been ).

A very obviously very beloved King.

So the elves that died heroic deaths saving others were released earlier because Mandos took pity at them?

I would not say "pity". I think Luthien was the only to move him to pity, all other judgements must have been based on the cold hard facts.

Glorfindel's dying deed played a part in him being released and allowed into Valinor, but I think that was in great part because of the later events with Earendil. Glorfindel was also released soon because of his innocence, and yet why didn't Ecthelion and many others who surely died heroicly get an early release? A Great portion of the exiled Noldor did not commit evil deeds such as Kinslaying and yet Glorfindel's early release looks to be an exception. That Earendil was among those directly saved by Glorfindel, might be a greater deed, but he was just a Noldo fighting for his people, as were many others.

But frankly, I don't think any of the reasons or all of them together are super convincing. I guess the Valar work in strange ways, and Glorfindel saving Earendil was creditted to him by them more than I would have done.

 

[Inderjit S]

Unlike Fëanor who will not be released from Mandos ever, and Aegnor who refuses to exit for Andreth's sake.

As far as I know Feanor and Finwe will never be released by Namo. I don't remember reading in the Athrabeth that Aegnor would remain in Mandos for Andreth's sake, and I don't know how him staying there will accomplish. If this is the case then Finduilas should remain too. The sons of Feanor may have remained too, and other Elves who committed evil deeds, such as Maeglin.

 

[Confusticated]

Near the end of their conversation, Finrod tells Andreth:

...thou shalt live long in the order of your kin, and he will go forth before thee and he will not wish to return.

I think Finduilas's situation is a tad different. Did she ever really love Gwindor. If so, why'd she stop when he still loved her. That is what I think of that.

 

[Beleg]

Matter of love are strange. We know she was Bethrothed to him, so she must surely at a time like him so greatly and perhaps love him to agree to mary him, and that would have been just before his capture. Perhaps she loved him, but One thing is for sure, even in the matters of heart phyiscal appearences is a very important thing and after Gwindor returned his physical shape was not exactly exampliary, perhaps Findiulas loved Gwindor too, but loved Turin more.

 

[Gil-Galad]

Well,Finrod actually doesnot have any negative features.Probably we love him so mich because of his attitude towards men and because of the fact that he dies for a mortal,for Beren.I personally like him because of the moment when he "fights" with Sauron using songs.

 

[Inderjit S]

Personally he bored me, also Beleg_Strongbow, Maedhros was never a 'King'.

 

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Inderjit S
Personally he bored me, also Beleg_Strongbow, Maedhros was never a 'King'.

And why Finrod bored you?

 

[Ithrynluin]

Of Amarië

From HoME XII: The Peoples of Middle Earth; The Shibboleth of Fëanor:

The reference in the first of these notes to the wife of Finrod Felagund is notable, since long before, in the Grey Annals, the story had emerged that Felagund had no wife, and that 'she whom he had loved was Amarie of the Vanyar, and [color=sky blue]she was not permitted to go with him into exile[/color]'. That story had in fact been abandoned, or forgotten, but it would return...

Amarië was Finrod's loved one. I would at least understand to some extent if she did not wish to go into exile, but she was not permitted? By whom? Why?

If we compare this with what is said in The published Silmarillion:

It came to pass that Nargothrond was full-wrought (and yet Turgon still dwelt in the halls of Vinyamar), and the sons of Finarfin were gathered there to a feast; and Galadriel came from Doriath and dwelt a while in Nargothrond. Now King Finrod Felagund had no wife, and Galadriel asked him why this should be; but foresight came upon Felagund as she spoke, and he said: 'An oath I too shall swear, and must be free to fulfil it, and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of my realm endure that a son should inherit.'
But it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled him; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amarië of the Vanyar, and she went not with him into exile.

There is no mention here about why Amarië did not leave with Finrod.

 

[Inderjit S]

Her parents perhaps? Maybe Manwe gave a message to her parents which was similar to the one Aule gave to Mahtan:

(Her kin were devoted to Aule, who counselled her father to take no part in the Rebellion 'It will only lead Feanor and all you children to death)

Shibboleth of Feanor HoME 12

So is it possible that Amarie's parents (She may have been a young-ish Elf) told her she had to stay in Valinor and maybe her wisdom made her stay as well.

I think that the text that your quote from the Published Silmarillion was derived from the Grey Annals (HoME 11) was the first time Amarie had been mentioned, prior to that Felagund had been married to one Meril a Falthrim Elf I believe (since in one quote it says Finrod sent her and his son, Gil-Galad, who is here Finrod's son to her people in Eglorest, which is the Southern haven of the Falas) and I think that Tolkien may not have given much thought to Amarie's decision to stay in Valinor rather then go with Finrod and he may have elaborated on it in the latter Shibboleth of Feanor

 

[Confusticated]

I think one reason it seems odd to us that she could be restrained by anyone, is that she is a Vanya. They were a different people, more content in Valinor and trustful of the Valar.

Would the Noldor ladies stay behind because others adviced them to? Would Galadriel or Aredhel? Ha!

Finarfin was more like the Vanyar than the rest of the group we know, except maybe his son Orodreth, and look at what he did.

He first tried to have everyone think things through before rushing off to Middle-earth. Was that not the best thing to do? I have no doubt that it was, and only Orodreth was of like mind. Then he was overcome with grief, and must have seen better than most what was to come in Middle-earth, so he went back home. I think some people who love the Noldor do not respect Finarfin for doing this, but the fact is that that is the kind of guy Finarfin was.

Amarie was of a different people, and she herself may well have known the foolishness of the the rebellion. I can not imagine she would have stayed in Valmar otherwise. I imagine she must have known Finrod's reasons for leaving, and just trusted that he would be back. Why go into hell and grieve her family when she could wait in safety for Finrod to return? And it wasn't long before he did.

It is really no different than any lady staying behind while her husband goes to war, for example.

So if people advised her not to go, and she saw wisdom in that, it might qualify as 'not permitted'?

 

[Beleg]

and just trusted that he would be back.

But surely she would have heard the doom of Mandos and being a Vanyar she would know that there is really no chance for Noldor in Beleriand.
And how do you mean come back? Alive or Incarnated in another body form?

 

[Confusticated]

But surely she would have heard the doom of Mandos and being a Vanyar she would know that there is really no chance for Noldor in Beleriand.

She would not have known the Doom until after she has missed her chance to go along. But, she might have known that they were fighting a losing battle even before this. At the least, have known that the Noldor were going into great danger.

I do not think we can be sure she would know there was no chance though. If not for the kinslaying, what would have happend with the Noldor in Middle-earth? I believe less hell would have came of it. Whatever one imagines would have come of it if not for the Kinslaying, would be of similar mind to Amarie when she failed to go along.

And how do you mean come back? Alive or Incarnated in another body form?

No, I think she might have trusted that he would be back. That one day he would return to take her safely to Middle-earth, or to remain with her in Valinor.

Who that loves and is loved by Finrod could possably despair?