Of Dagor Dagorath and the Second 🎶Music

[Mithrellas.Dagoranna]

I am still confused with Dagor Dagorath and the second music.

Will Melkor attack Valinor with troops of orcs? Will other bad guys like Sauron and Balrogs will be alive again and fight on the Last Battle? Because I never know the details, perhaps we never know, but maybe some of you know somethings about it, you can share!

So, is it true that the dead elves will be resurrect after the battle? And when the fallen Men come? The text says, Men and Elves will join the second music.

Is the war only at Valinor? Or happens to Middle earth too? If so, what happen to the free folks there?

What happen to the dwarf if they die?

So, you got so manymuch questions, ehehehehehe... sorry folks!!

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

I am still confused with Dagor Dagorath and the second music.

Will Melkor attack Valinor with troops of orcs? Will other bad guys like Sauron and Balrogs will be alive again and fight on the Last Battle? Because I never know the details, perhaps we never know, but maybe some of you know somethings about it, you can share!

So, is it true that the dead elves will be resurrect after the battle? And when the fallen Men come? The text says, Men and Elves will join the second music.

Is the war only at Valinor? Or happens to Middle earth too? If so, what happen to the free folks there?

What happen to the dwarf if they die?

So, you got so manymuch questions, ehehehehehe... sorry folks!!

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Dagor_Dagorath

This should at least give you an understanding of the Dagor Dagorath. Let me know if you're still confused!

CL

By the way,

Welcome to the Forum!

CL

 

[Mithrellas.Dagoranna]

Thanks Cirdan!

But i'm still confused. So it says, Melkor will recreate his greatest servants, like Sauron, Balrogs, etc. But will he recreate like, Saruman and Uruks and Orcs?

And it says, the battle will take place in valinor and all of the free folks will participate. So, the dwarves who live in middle earth, will they sail to the west to aid valar and elves? Or the battle is also in Middle Earth?

What happen after the battle? Especially for dwarves? Even this has been explained in the text, that it is not specified since Tolkien abandoned his writing.

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

Thanks Cirdan!

But i'm still confused. So it says, Melkor will recreate his greatest servants, like Sauron, Balrogs, etc. But will he recreate like, Saruman and Uruks and Orcs?

And it says, the battle will take place in valinor and all of the free folks will participate. So, the dwarves who live in middle earth, will they sail to the west to aid valar and elves? Or the battle is also in Middle Earth?

What happen after the battle? Especially for dwarves? Even this has been explained in the text, that it is not specified since Tolkien abandoned his writing.

I don't know about Saruman, sounds unlikely. Orcs, more likely, he needs foot soldiers after all, and a lot of them.

I'm not sure how they'd get there, but they will be there.

The battle will end and renew Arda's existence: all the Elves shall awaken and the Powers will be young again. Also, according to Dwarven legends, they will help their maker Aulë recreate Arda in all its glory again. So, basically, after the battle, the world would be remade and be made perfect without the taint of evil.

The main problem with Dagor Dagorath is that Tolkien abandoned this concept, and didn't work out the fine details of it. Other than the general information I provided, it's all mere speculation.

Hope this helps.
CL

 

[Elthir]

Caution: external (not "in story") type comments follow. It's really wordy too! It's probably good to ignore this post and continue with "in story" chat. But I had some free time, I already typed it all up, so I'm posting this anyway!

Quoting the link (Tolkien Gateway) with my emphasis: "The Final Battle, also known as the Second Prophecy of Mandos, but probably best known as the Dagor Dagorath ("Battle of all Battles"), is an apocalyptic event prophesied by Mandos. According to Christopher Tolkien, the Dagor Dagorath was abandoned by Tolkien."

Christopher Tolkien explains: "the Second Prophecy of Mandos (V.333) had now therefore definitively disappeared. This passage was used to form a conclusion to the published Silmarillion (p. 255)."

And that's why the constructed Silmarillion, published in 1977, includes a direct statement (ultimately from the pen of JRRT) that if the Marring of Arda is amended, it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.

Then we have...

A) an author's note that the myths or legends that appear at the end of the Silmarillion are of Numenorean/Mannish origin (Morgoth's Ring). Seems (to me) to agree with "not Mandos" at least.

and...

B) Christopher Tolkien's opinion that his father's note refers to the conclusion of the Prophecy of Mandos, in so far as it refers to any actual written text.

I agree, and...

32) in a fairly late text, Turin's return becomes part of a prophecy put into the mouth of Andreth the Wise Woman [the Problem of Ros, note 17]. And Andreth's prophecy relates that Turin will return at the Last Battle (First Age), to slay Ancalagon the Black, no reference to any End of Time scenario here for Turin.

What I draw from all this confusion (and from more confusion that I haven't mentioned, and in general from other texts that refer to any End Times scenario) is that there was going to be some sort of End Times like reference here (or there), in some measure...

... at least in the form of prophecy or predictive musing or something...

... but who knows what those details were certainly going to be? We see Tolkien seemingly vacillating about Turin in late texts, and scrubbing any prediction specifically from the trustworthy mouth of Mandos himself (though I trust Andreth too, for the record).

Christopher Tolkien does note some 1950s revisions (including a large X near some sentences) to the relevant sections in the later Quenta Silmarillion (sections 31, 32), which could arguably indicate the Second Prophecy was still in the works at this point, but then and somewhat swiftly Christopher Tolkien (same guy) cautions the reader about necessarily taking these changes as "implying any sort of final approval of the content."

So I'm confused too!

I don't want to end discussion about the Second Prophecy, but to note it here: these details often enough hail from the Lost Road version of the Quenta Silmarillion, that is, generally speaking, an "early-ish" incomplete version of QS (there was only one complete version of "QS" ever written anyway, the QN of 1930), so a version generally dating to the mid to later 1930s, well before The Lord of the Rings was "finished" and published in the 1950s.

Okay plenty of folks don't care about that (if I've got it right). I get that. Tolkien wrote this prediction at one point, so maybe he was going to publish it anywho.

But it's from a version of QS that doesn't even mention Galadriel

Ahem. Also, I've seen the argument that maybe the later "Andreth scenario" wasn't necessarily going to replace something very like what Tolkien had already written according to the Lost Road Quenta Silmarillion.

Okay, maybe

Anyway I've likely made the confusing far more confusing if any dare read this rocky rambling!

 

[Mithrellas.Dagoranna]

What happen to the hobbits then? To the ents? Will they fight on the Last battle?

So, the battle only take place in Valinor?

How Melkor will come to Valinor, after breaking the wallrings of night?

So, the world will be dark?because the sun and the moon died after Melkor trapped them.

How Melkor bring his troops?

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

Caution: external (not "in story") type comments follow. It's really wordy too! It's probably good to ignore this post and continue with "in story" chat. But I had some free time, I already typed it all up, so I'm posting this anyway!

Quoting the link (Tolkien Gateway) with my emphasis: "The Final Battle, also known as the Second Prophecy of Mandos, but probably best known as the Dagor Dagorath ("Battle of all Battles"), is an apocalyptic event prophesied by Mandos. According to Christopher Tolkien, the Dagor Dagorath was abandoned by Tolkien."

Christopher Tolkien explains: "the Second Prophecy of Mandos (V.333) had now therefore definitively disappeared. This passage was used to form a conclusion to the published Silmarillion (p. 255)."

And that's why the constructed Silmarillion, published in 1977, includes a direct statement (ultimately from the pen of JRRT) that if the Marring of Arda is amended, it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.

Then we have...

A) an author's note that the myths or legends that appear at the end of the Silmarillion are of Numenorean/Mannish origin (Morgoth's Ring). Seems (to me) to agree with "not Mandos" at least.

and...

B) Christopher Tolkien's opinion that his father's note refers to the conclusion of the Prophecy of Mandos, in so far as it refers to any actual written text.

I agree, and...

32) in a fairly late text, Turin's return becomes part of a prophecy put into the mouth of Andreth the Wise Woman [the Problem of Ros, note 17]. And Andreth's prophecy relates that Turin will return at the Last Battle (First Age), to slay Ancalagon the Black, no reference to any End of Time scenario here for Turin.

What I draw from all this confusion (and from more confusion that I haven't mentioned, and in general from other texts that refer to any End Times scenario) is that there was going to be some sort of End Times like reference here (or there), in some measure...

... at least in the form of prophecy or predictive musing or something...

... but who knows what those details were certainly going to be? We see Tolkien seemingly vacillating about Turin in late texts, and scrubbing any prediction specifically from the trustworthy mouth of Mandos himself (though I trust Andreth too, for the record).

Christopher Tolkien does note some 1950s revisions (including a large X near some sentences) to the relevant sections in the later Quenta Silmarillion (sections 31, 32), which could arguably indicate the Second Prophecy was still in the works at this point, but then and somewhat swiftly Christopher Tolkien (same guy) cautions the reader about necessarily taking these changes as "implying any sort of final approval of the content."

So I'm confused too!

I don't want to end discussion about the Second Prophecy, but to note it here: these details often enough hail from the Lost Road version of the Quenta Silmarillion, that is, generally speaking, an "early-ish" incomplete version of QS (there was only one complete version of "QS" ever written anyway, the QN of 1930), so a version generally dating to the mid to later 1930s, well before The Lord of the Rings was "finished" and published in the 1950s.

Okay plenty of folks don't care about that (if I've got it right). I get that. Tolkien wrote this prediction at one point, so maybe he was going to publish it anywho.

But it's from a version of QS that doesn't even mention Galadriel

Ahem. Also, I've seen the argument that maybe the later "Andreth scenario" wasn't necessarily going to replace something very like what Tolkien had already written according to the Lost Road Quenta Silmarillion.

Okay, maybe

Anyway I've likely made the confusing far more confusing if any dare read this rocky rambling!

I actually quite enjoyed it. Cheers!

Any who, I once heard somewhere, bear with me, I don't quite recall where, I only know it had something to do with the Athrabeth, that Eru himself would enter Arda to save it. I'm trying very hard to remember and track down where I found that. I'll get back to you all. Please bear with me.

But it is a very Christian idea, no doubt, and certainly allegorical in nature, so I am perplexed as to why it was mentioned or why it was even thought of. I don't know what Tolkien did with it.

I only remember the Athrabeth being somewhat to do with this.

Please don't make me a pincushion, I am only a meek messenger!

What say you?

Would you be so kind as to help me track down this exciting bit of information?

CL

 

[Ingolmin]

Firstly, according to me it is pointless to talk about this!!
No one knows what's going to happen in the Dagor Dagorath. We only know one thing that is the Prophecy of Mandos. Maybe Manwe and Mandos can foresee but no elf or living man knows how the world will end.
Also the Second theme of Music of Ainur has no relation with Dagor Dagorath,
the most important thing is that Tolkien later abandoned the idea of the Last Battle as mentioned by CirdanLinweilin before.

 

[Elthir]

"Would you be so kind as to help me track down this exciting bit of information?"

Sure, go to...

Morgoth's Ring, take a left, Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth will be straight ahead, then proceed to the texts labelled "A, B, and C" printed and discussed after the bits from the Glossary (page 350, first edition hardback MR).

You can park your vehicle (bikes only at this point) by Christopher Tolkien's commentary on the "astonishing conception in the Athrabeth of "the Great Hope of Men", as it is called in the draft A, "the Old Hope" as it is called in the final text (p. 321)."

... which is just before the notes that are themselves before the Appendix on the Converse of Manwe and Eru.

If that helps

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

"Would you be so kind as to help me track down this exciting bit of information?"

Sure, go to...

Morgoth's Ring, take a left, Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth will be straight ahead, then proceed to the texts labelled "A, B, and C" printed and discussed after the bits from the Glossary (page 350, first edition hardback MR).

You can park your vehicle (bikes only at this point) by Christopher Tolkien's commentary on the "astonishing conception in the Athrabeth of "the Great Hope of Men", as it is called in the draft A, "the Old Hope" as it is called in the final text (p. 321)."

... which is just before the notes that are themselves before the Appendix on the Converse of Manwe and Eru.

If that helps

Thank you!

CL

 

[Azrubêl]

I am still confused with Dagor Dagorath and the second music.

Will Melkor attack Valinor with troops of orcs? Will other bad guys like Sauron and Balrogs will be alive again and fight on the Last Battle? Because I never know the details, perhaps we never know, but maybe some of you know somethings about it, you can share!

So, is it true that the dead elves will be resurrect after the battle? And when the fallen Men come? The text says, Men and Elves will join the second music.

Is the war only at Valinor? Or happens to Middle earth too? If so, what happen to the free folks there?

What happen to the dwarf if they die?

So, you got so manymuch questions, ehehehehehe... sorry folks!!

I assume these are the same questions that puzzled Tolkien himself as he thought of it!

I think the main gist was that it would be a return to a primordial sort of state of existence, like at the beginning of The Silmarillion, how the Valar shape Arda like giants, laboring on its surface and fashioning detail into it, so that it becomes essentially "re-made" from the basic, plain form that it is originally when the Ainur first descend to it. As for the role of all peoples and beings involved, who can say but Ilúvatar!

But, of course, the idea was abandoned, perhaps more because of it being over the "event horizon" of History itself, than because Tolkien rejected the spirit of it.