PJ talks about the sequels...not good news.

Grond · Feb 26, 2002

Originally posted by PRH
Every thread eventually goes off topic...
Tolkien seems to contradict himself. At the end of FOTR it says

quote:
The second part is called The Two Towers, since the events recounted in it are dominated by ORTHANC, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of MINAS MORGUL that guards the secret entrance to Mordor.

And it would seem that Tolkien wrote this passage, due to the elaborateness of it. Nevertheless, based on that letter this issue seems to boil down to a cool sounding title which doesn't have a strong meaning behind it.

Still off topic but....
It doesn't appear that Tolkien wrote the line you speak of. It appears to be an insertion by Houghton-Mifflin in there Americanization of the texts. It appears in my three oldest volumes of the trilogy (copyright 1954, 1965 & 1966 by JRRT and renewed in 1982 by the Estate.) It does not appear in the three new movie sets I recently bought in small and large paperback and in hardback. I believe these reflect the 1987 revisions by CT and that might explain the summaries removal.

None of my English copies have that verbage at all. So my assumption is that it was a Houghton-Mifflin insertion based on one of the letters he sent to them. He wasn't ever really definitive on the issue. If one looks at all of his letters, he really leaves it to the reader to decide. He said it could have been Orthanc and Minas Morgul, Orthanc and Cirith Ungol, Orthanc and Barad-dur or Barad-dur and Minas Tirith. So... there you go.

PRH · Feb 26, 2002

Originally posted by Grond
It doesn't appear that Tolkien wrote the line you speak of. It appears to be an insertion by Houghton-Mifflin in there Americanization of the texts.

Well whoever wrote it did a good job. That's the kind of 'spirit of Tolkien' writing PJ & Co. couldn't gotten away with.

An interesting side note: The first part of the passage used to be the phrase that ended the Bashki movie:

"Here ends the first part of the history of the War of the Ring"

Then in the DVD release they changed it to something like:

"The forces of evil were destroyed forever by the valiant friends of Frodo."

I guess that change somehow makes us overlook the fact that there was never a part 2.

ssgrif · Feb 27, 2002

To get back to the point:

Originally posted by PRH
He said that TTT in general is not long enough to provide material for a whole film.

Ok, so PJ has stated clearly that TTT is not long enough for a movie. But why the heck did he remove the Shelob sections and place them into the ROTK?

Surely he's making the movie even shorter? Madness.

ReadWryt · Feb 27, 2002

ssgrif,

Well if one follows the Template of the first film then it could be assumed that he had to move Shelob to make room for some invented crap that he can't stand to part with but was none the less not in the book.

On a general note, it must be heartwrenching to the die hard P.J. fans who have been touting for so long what a fantastic job it was that he did shooting three movies at once, and how that had never been done before, to see Jackson admitting that he is headed back to New Zealand to finish SHOOTING his movie that was supposedly shot all at once. Feet of clay can be a bummer, especially when you always wear that same old crusty pair of hiking boots!

Harad · Feb 27, 2002

Jackson admitting that he is headed back to New Zealand to finish SHOOTING his movie

Anything and its converse is grounds for bashing.

"Look he's going back to do some additional shooting! Couldnt he get it right the first time?"

"Look. He was too egotistical (fat? shoeless?) to shoot any more after the first time, even tho he could have made improvements."

Jealousy rears its ugly head.

I dont know where Shelob is and I didnt want to know. There is no doubt that TTT is the shortest book, but then ROTK is not much longer. FOTR is by far the longest and furthermore contains all the exposition.

The more backstory and invention in the movie, AS LONG AS ITS IN THE SPIRIT OF LOTR, the better! Lets have a work of art that builds upon the masterpiece we already like. Slavish recapitulation is for...posters.

Thorin · Feb 27, 2002

Originally posted by Harad
The more backstory and invention in the movie, AS LONG AS ITS IN THE SPIRIT OF LOTR, the better! Lets have a work of art that builds upon the masterpiece we already like

So I was right....Harad, can't you figure out what you believe? Sounds pretty much what I thought you felt, yet you ambiguously state otherwise.

"A work of art that builds upon the mastepiece we already like?"

Yeah....If PJ at least did that, I might forgive him....However, the work of art is in making the book come alive, not adding to it, plus PJ will not only add his own fabrications, but change the existing ones as well....A masterpiece can stand alone....Who cares about what PJ thinks? Let him bring what's already there to the screen as best as possible.

Harad · Feb 27, 2002

Just plain wrong. PJ is not re-writing the book LOTR. He is making a movie. If you want a slavish rendition from the book to the movie, you will get a flop. A book and screenplay are different.

Furthermore I do not believe that Art ended when JRRT laid down his pen. I welcome new and interesting explications of things that JRRT did not flesh out, omitted entirely, or--blashpemy alert--or made imperfectly.

Bucky · Feb 27, 2002

I must say I agree with Harad on this(I always did like the underdog...).

Just because 'PJ' (sounds so chummy) has to film some more stuff, he screwed up?

Let's be REAL here.
My mind cannot even begin to comprehend how to make a movie, let alone TLOR.

What makes anybody think CT would know any better?
Did he collaborate on the Cartoon TLOR?
Gee, that was great....

Of course, I've never been one to use the old 'You can't even_____, so don't critcize the artist who's _____ing' line.
Anyone is entitled to their opinion, expert or laymen.....

BTW, off topic:
JRR wanted to call volume III "The War Of The Ring". Makes more sense as it doesn't give away any of the ending like ROTK does.

At least it wasn't called 'The Destruction of the Ring'......

And, if not the very imperfect 'The Two Towers', then what?
Any ideas?

'The Former Fellowship of the Ring'

Seriously, about the best I can think of is:

'The Treason of Isengard/The Black Gate Is Closed'

baraka · Feb 27, 2002

What makes anybody think CT would know any better?
Did he collaborate on the Cartoon TLOR?
Gee, that was great....

Did CT collaborate on the Cartoon TLOR? Which one?

CT would not have butchered the movie as much as PJ. Just my humble opinion.

Ho Tom Bombadil, Ho Tom Bombadillo.

Snaga · Feb 28, 2002

A question about Christopher Tolkien seemed to annoy Peter just a little. But Mr. Jackson was very cordial and reasonably explained that the Tolkien's did not want to be exploited by the movie. There was no contact between himself and Christopher Tolkien; everything was handled by lawyers. Getting the Tolkien estate involved would have been messy anyway because their involvement would have been perceived as an endorsement of the movie, sort of making it into the 'official' LOTR movies. Peter argues that it would not have been in anyones best interest to have the Tolkien's involved because the 'power of veto' wouldn't have been granted to them (e.g. they wouldn't be able to control who was or was not cast for a certain role.)

This quote is from the same page as the original quote that started this thread and gives some insight into the CT question.

Anyway, I think we'd still find people cursing the name of CT for allowing any changes to come in. In addition, everyone would probably be cursing PJ for producing out-and-out bad films. Only the most jaundiced observer fails to recognise that, so far at least, PJ has produced an excellent film that is bringing people to read the books. If the film had been made by CT and PJ in some sort of tensional relationship with constant pulling in different directions, you can bet your house on the film being nowhere near as effective as cinema (even if it was more meticulous in sticking to the book).

I can't think of a worse outcome than a bad film that is utterly faithful to the book: it would have put people off the book for years to come.

Personally I can't see anything in this report to get really anxious about. The big news about Shelob is that she gets moved to RotK. PJ moved the Departure of Boromir, and that worked, so I will reserve judgement. I also suspect that some of the development between Gimli and Legolas will come to the fore, which I would welcome.

Harad · Feb 28, 2002

VoK!

If PJ fills out TTT with new inventions that shock and amaze,

Yes!

and pushes Shelob into ROTK...

Obviously we want it all..NOW..

But you dont always get what you want.
But you'll find sometime,
You just might get what you need.

baraka · Feb 28, 2002

If PJ fills out TTT with new inventions that shock and amaze,

If PJ made Galadriel appear in Helm´s Deep, it would certainly shock and amaze me!

PRH · Feb 28, 2002

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
The big news about Shelob is that she gets moved to RotK. PJ moved the Departure of Boromir, and that worked, so I will reserve judgement.

I'd like to see the Shelob thing sooner but that's not my main problem with moving it to ROTK.

1) It wrecks the structure of the Frodo/Sam/Gollum thread. Gollum is a TTT character. He doesn't really figure into FOTR much. TTT starts with the taming of Smeagol and it ends with his betrayal. Then Gollum is not really seen again until Orodruin. Aside from that, what major event does PJ have to end the thread on? The army issuing from Morgul? Faramir setting them on their way again? Lost in the tunnel? These sound like pretty lame ways to end the movie.

2) Moving the Shelob encounter into ROTK will cut into the book ROTK story quite a bit. Does this mean the journey from Cirith Ungol to Orodruin will be cut down to almost nothing? Will there be no marching with the orcs? (Is this another thing PJ will dump like Stider's broken sword because he thinks people won't take it seriously?)

I don't know. They did a pretty good job making FOTR feel like a self-contained movie so I'll have to wait and see. I'm skeptical though.

Greenleaf · Feb 28, 2002

As much as I hate the idea of PJ cutting more out of the next two movies there is one thing that has not been mentioned yet. He (PJ) I aloud to do this. He never signed a contract saying that he wouldn't change anything. Let's face it guys, a book or really books like LOTR can not be made into movies without something getting cut. My experience has been this the better the book the harder it is to make a movie out if it. And LOTR is an awesome series. I am just happy that PJ is trying, if he weren’t we would be stuck with the animated version. Yeah the changes irk me (I for one I’m livid the Arwen has more scenes ) but all and all I am looking forwards to watching the best (so fare) movie about LOTR.

baraka · Feb 28, 2002

As much as I hate the idea of PJ cutting more out of the next two movies

I though that PJ had said that in the TTT book there was not enough material for a movie. If that is true, then why should he cut it!

Thorin · Feb 28, 2002

Originally posted by Harad
VoK!

If PJ fills out TTT with new inventions that shock and amaze,

Yes!

and pushes Shelob into ROTK...

Yes, and let's make Wormtongue look like Jar-Jar Binks! Lets make Arwen lead a league of elves to Rohan to help her beloved!!! Let's make Theodred come back from the dead to lead with Aragorn and Eomer...Let's make Eomer a hired dwarf!!!! Let's make Gimli shout out at the passing Rohirrim "Nobody rides by a dwarf!!!!"

And there will be Harad, waving his little pro-PJ/anti-Tolkien flag, praising PJ for doing such a great job on a movie that consists mostly of his own invention! AND give kudos for making LotR so much better!!!!

Greenleaf · Feb 28, 2002

Okaaay um.. Yeah I think some one need a breath of fresh air, and I would suggest a nice brisk stroll as well.

Bucky · Mar 1, 2002

Cyber Thorin is to PJ as
The Real Thorin was to Bilbo after he took the Arkenstone.....

But seriously folks, a couple thoughts:

Won't Liv Tyler look great at the head of the Army that marches to the Black Gate?

Da da dunt, chih......

As I have heard stated previously up here, Saruman will allegedly buy it in this flick (TTT).
So, there is your ending.
Either the Ents will get him, or Gandalf will spin him around until his brain flies out of his eyes.......

Putting Shelob in the last movie is a simple move to even out the material.
Remember, ROTK is by far the shortest book.
Take out everything past Aragorn's wedding to Arwen, the obvious 'And they lived happily ever after' ending, & you need to skim part of TTT to get enough material.

If TTT doesn't have enough material on it's own (possible smokescreen?), my 1st choice to add would be the Battles at the Fords of Isen where Theodred is slain.

greypilgrim · Mar 1, 2002

"The Two Towers doesn't have enough material on its own"?.....WHAT!!!

Poor, misguided souls who believe that deserve to be let down.

Even with the departure of Boromir included in the Fellowship movie, there is PLENTY to take from the 2 Towers to make a movie 5 hours long. P.J. just wanted to tell his own story, thats what I think.
Not enough material that HE LIKED, maybe.

Anyways, I agree with somebody a few pages back who basically said they didn't mind if the movie has differing versions on the story as written, different takes and events. The cave troll fight was one example that I can use. But it's like not a figuring part of the STORY, it's just that P.J. allowed the troll in the tomb-room, that's not too much change.
Arwen at the Ford bugged me. Frodo would have been better.
Arwen at Helms Deep may be interesting. But its like lies, the more you tell, the more you need them. The more he changes the story, the more he will need to change as the story goes on, you see what I'm saying?
Changes in the dialogue are a given.
Changes of major events, not so wise.
I feel a major shift coming in the Lord of the Rings Trilogy, one that will be so different that it will change the course of the story until the end. Oh well, we will see what happens.

baraka · Mar 1, 2002

As I have heard stated previously up here, Saruman will allegedly buy it in this flick (TTT).

You are joking right, please tell me you are joking.

PJ talks about the sequels...not good news.

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