Post-War Northern Realm Rebuilding and Refounding

[CirdanLinweilin]

Hi, well met everyone!


I was wondering, since it is said, cannot remember where, that King Elessar, wanted to rebuild the Northern Kingdom, Arnor, and I think made Annuminas his base of operations and Capital. I was just wondering, last time we heard tell of Arnor, was its breakup and then eventual defeat.

Would Aragorn have united the Northern Kingdom as King again? Would he have made princes or generals to govern the different regions.

Or, for a more complicated question: How would the rebuilding and uniting of Arnor have played out? The repopulation of Annuminas, maybe with Dúnedain again? So, they will not have to be isolated communities? How long will a complete repop. of all of the Northern Kingdom (regions, cities) have gone? I know Fornost during the War was just ruins.

Thanks, I am just intrigued by the Northern Kingdom.

EDIT: Just found this on TolkienGateway:

Faramir, son of Denethor II the last Ruling Steward, presented his rod of office to the new king, and received it back from him. Aragorn II then was crowned by Gandalf as King Elessar, refounded the Kingdom of Arnor as part of the Reunited Kingdom, and made Annúminas his new capital city.[8] He was wed to the Elven princess Arwen, who became Queen Evenstar of Arnor and Gondor. After the fall of Sauron Arnor was safe again for resettlement of Men, and although it remained less populated than Gondor to the south, in time Arnor became a more densely populated region again, even if it had dwindled in size due to the independence of the Shire. The area encompassed by the Reunited Kingdom now encompassed the territory of the Two Kingdoms at their greatest extent. In the North, this included all the land between the River Lune and the Misty Mountains, and in the South included all the land between Dunland in the west, to the Far Harad southwards, to Rhûn in the east. The reborn kingdom continued on into the Fourth Age, with Eldarion eventually succeeding his father to the throne of this now empire-sized state

I found this, but I still want a discussion on what I asked. Thanks.

CL

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

It would take time, but it would happen. As Gandalf tells Barliman:

'Then the Greenway will be opened again, and his messengers will come north, and there will be comings and goings, and the evil things will be driven out of the wastelands. Indeed the waste in time will be waste no longer, and there will be people and fields, where once there was wilderness.'

King Elessar came north about a decade and a half after the fall of Sauron, so you could assume things had progressed fairly rapidly.

Of course, this is romance we're talking about, nor "realist" fiction; the characterization is polarised, black vs white, good vs evil, and therefore so is the imagery: the good is associated with youth, fertility, spring, and all the other associated images. Age, sterility, winter, naturally go on the side of evil. For instance, Theoden and Denethor show two aspects of the impotent "Fisher king", one redeemed, one fallen.

Romance can have a tragic structure; the Silmarillion stories offer plenty of examples. Or it can have a comic structure, in which the hero renews his society, or even creates a new one. When the hero of a comedy returns home to claim his bride and his elevated status, we are to assume these things will continue into a "happily ever after"; and this is true in romance as well: the family will be fecund, the land will be fertile, winter will give way to spring. (BTW, the reference to comedy isn't meant to imply the story must be "funny", though comic elements are not ruled out; but the difference between a comic tone and the comic structure is not hard to see).

This happy-ever-aftering is, as I said, taken as a given, and as a rule, the story ends with overthrow of the antagonist and the recognition of the hero; we don't usually follow him into his new life. This is the case with Aragorn: he claims his bride and is crowned King; we are to assume the land will become once more populous and fertile.

That Tolkien does allow us to see the aftermath in the Shire is, I think, due to the need to establish the contrast between the new, integrated society, and the bitterness of Frodo's tragic exclusion from it, something critics long failed to grasp.

That's my take; sorry it's not really "realistic" (but then, neither, in most ways, is LOTR). We'll see what others have to say on that.

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

It would take time, but it would happen. As Gandalf tells Barliman:

'Then the Greenway will be opened again, and his messengers will come north, and there will be comings and goings, and the evil things will be driven out of the wastelands. Indeed the waste in time will be waste no longer, and there will be people and fields, where once there was wilderness.'

King Elessar came north about a decade and a half after the fall of Sauron, so you could assume things had progressed fairly rapidly.

Of course, this is romance we're talking about, nor "realist" fiction; the characterization is polarised, black vs white, good vs evil, and therefore so is the imagery: the good is associated with youth, fertility, spring, and all the other associated images. Age, sterility, winter, naturally go on the side of evil. For instance, Theoden and Denethor show two aspects of the impotent "Fisher king", one redeemed, one fallen.

Romance can have a tragic structure; the Silmarillion stories offer plenty of examples. Or it can have a comic structure, in which the hero renews his society, or even creates a new one. When the hero of a comedy returns home to claim his bride and his elevated status, we are to assume these things will continue into a "happily ever after"; and this is true in romance as well: the family will be fecund, the land will be fertile, winter will give way to spring. (BTW, the reference to comedy isn't meant to imply the story must be "funny", though comic elements are not ruled out; but the difference between a comic tone and the comic structure is not hard to see).

This happy-ever-aftering is, as I said, taken as a given, and as a rule, the story ends with overthrow of the antagonist and the recognition of the hero; we don't usually follow him into his new life. This is the case with Aragorn: he claims his bride and is crowned King; we are to assume the land will become once more populous and fertile.

That Tolkien does allow us to see the aftermath in the Shire is, I think, due to the need to establish the contrast between the new, integrated society, and the bitterness of Frodo's tragic exclusion from it, something critics long failed to grasp.

That's my take; sorry it's not really "realistic" (but then, neither, in most ways, is LOTR). We'll see what others have to say on that.

Very good points, Squint!

Thank you for contributing! That is a very good point about the structure of Aragorn's journey, it's ending, and the common structure of these heroes with this story. I did not think of it that way! My High Fantasy Heroine I guess shares the same story of Aragorn, in the first book, excluding the love, but including the elevated status.


Good points to muse over!

CL

 

[Valandil]

I suppose it would have taken lots of time. To start though, I imagine the remnants of the Dunedain in Eriador converged at Annuminas and began to rebuild. I think most had been in the Angle - or that general area, with those among them who were "Rangers" roving all over Eriador.

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

I suppose it would have taken lots of time. To start though, I imagine the remnants of the Dunedain in Eriador converged at Annuminas and began to rebuild. I think most had been in the Angle - or that general area, with those among them who were "Rangers" roving all over Eriador.

Thanks for the comment, Valandil! And yes, that is what I was thinking. I am assuming that now that their Chieftain is King of the Reunited Kingdoms, the Dúnedain will now have someplace to live instead of possibly small, isolated communities. I am guessing they breathed a sigh of relief for that!

CL

 

[Deleted member 12094]

Acoording to "App. B The Tale of Years", it was indeed 17 years after the events of LotR that Aragorn (King Elessar) went north:

1436 King Elessar rides north, and dwells for a while by Lake Evendim. He comes to the Brandywine Bridge, and there greets his friends. He gives the Star of the Dúnedain to Master Samwise, and Elanor is made a maid of honour to Queen Arwen.
​

To this event also the unpublished Epilogue of LotR is referring; you can find it in HoMe 9, "Part One: The End of the third Age", XI The Epilogue.

I suppose that Aragorn must have been traveling often in his huge kingdom, and that this explains why he'd stay there "for a while". The same wording can be read in "App. A: Annals of the Kings and Rulers":

Our King, we call him; and when he comes north to his house in Annúminas restored and stays for a while by Lake Evendim, then everyone in the Shire is glad. But he does not enter this land and binds himself by the law that he has made, that none of the Big People shall pass its borders. But he rides often with many fair people to the Great Bridge, and there he welcomes his friends, and any others who wish to see him; and some ride away with him and stay in his house as long as they have a mind. Thain Peregrin has been there many times; and so has Master Samwise the Mayor. His daughter Elanor the Fair is one of the maids of Queen Evenstar.​

 

[Valandil]

Thanks for the comment, Valandil! And yes, that is what I was thinking. I am assuming that now that their Chieftain is King of the Reunited Kingdoms, the Dúnedain will now have someplace to live instead of possibly small, isolated communities. I am guessing they breathed a sigh of relief for that!

CL

Yes - with Sauron's defeat, they were free to come out into the open again, and restore their long-lost city. Though on a much smaller scale at first.

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I suppose that Aragorn must have been traveling often in his huge kingdom, and that this explains why he'd stay there "for a while". The same wording can be read in "App. A: Annals of the Kings and Rulers":
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Yes - a long stay would make the trip worthwhile. I also think he would have liked staying there a bit, because it (together with the remnants of Fornost... "Dead Man's Dike" per the Bree-Folk) was the home of his ancestral line of kings. I suppose he had explored the ruined city of Annuminas in his earlier days... probably in the first couple decades he went out to live in the wilds, before venturing beyond Eriador into Rohan, Gondor, Mordor, the far south, etc. And now he'd be very glad to see Annuminas again - restored to a living city.

 

[Halasían]

This thread made for some good reading and I must have missed it when it came around a couple years ago.

I would think one of the first public works projects undertaken post-war would be the rebuilding of the Bridge of Tharbad. It would be essential to the free travel between Gondor and Arnor in the decades following the war.

There would likely be a lot of infrastructure repair (maybe contracted to the Gimli Construction Company?) earmarked along with the rebuilding of the cities of Annuminas and Fornost Erain in the north, & Osgiliath in the south. Of the latter, the Dome of the Stars and the Great Bridge over the Anduin would be likely early projects.

Anyway, I'm drifting off-topic-sort-of-but-not-really...

 

[Deleted member 12094]

There would likely be a lot of infrastructure repair [...] Osgiliath in the south. Of the latter, the Dome of the Stars and the Great Bridge over the Anduin would be likely early projects.

I think your suppositions sound quite logical, however Tyler appears to disagree here (from "The complete Tolkien Companion", see the entry under "Osgiliath"):

Although this [= Sauron's] army was decisively defeated at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, and Osgiliath was recaptured, the city was never rebuilt and was afterwards allowed to fall peacefully into final ruin.​

Obviously, if he writes that, then he must have had a source for this information. I tried to locate that source but could not find anything to confirm this. Anyone knows where this may have come from...?

 

[Olorgando]

JRRT does not provide any information as to how large the population ruled over by the Northern Chieftains was, it can't have been very large, I would guess. Nominally, they did have over 1000 years for recovery after the Witch-king vanished from the north, but not all of his "legacy" seems to have disappeared. Quite to the contrary, Orcs and wolves (and trolls?) seem also to have multiplied, if one reads appendices A and B in RoTK. So how could they, beginning with the Fourth Age, repopulate Eriador? Hardly by themselves, I would guess, not even if all families had progeny at the rate of Sam and Rose. I would think there would be a need for immigration. By whom? The Beornings, some crossing over the Misty Mountains and passing by Rivendell? They don't seem to have been suffering overpopulation at this time. Perhaps the Rohirrim? After all, they had ancestrally been far in the north of the Anduin vales. Somewhat more likely, I would guess.

A tongue-in-cheek "solution":
Treebeard, realizing that there were not going to be any more Entings, decided that he would do something to help his friends Merry and Pippin. So Fangorn Forest began exporting Ent-draughts to the Shire, leading to the Hobbits getting bigger with each generation, until they were indistinguishable from "Big Folk" ...

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

First, I'm sure Aragorn has authorized local governments such as promoting Shire county's or Ithilien's provincial power(Notice that Ithilien has no prince before, Faramir is the first Ithilien prince). This means that Aragon must got much more immediate budget for Arnor's rebuild.
In addition, equalization for local development has been proved important by the Angamar and Wainriders war(Notice these 2 threat were all grown in secret and too late to get found out). So the Gondor Senate will hardly slash the budget.
About the human resources, I personally guess maybe the hobbits will play an important role instead of the Numenorains. After all, colonization for virgin lands takes very very very much immigrants, and the hobbits suffered fewer in comparison with other sources of human resources from the War of the Ring. Of course basic bureau will still rely on the Numenorains who have the advantage of all kinds of talent and ability.

 

[Halasían]

I think your suppositions sound quite logical, however Tyler appears to disagree here (from "The complete Tolkien Companion", see the entry under "Osgiliath"):

Although this [= Sauron's] army was decisively defeated at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, and Osgiliath was recaptured, the city was never rebuilt and was afterwards allowed to fall peacefully into final ruin.

Obviously, if he writes that, then he must have had a source for this information. I tried to locate that source but could not find anything to confirm this. Anyone knows where this may have come from...?

Yeah I read that before. Good for Tyler. Since he doesn't reveal any sources for his statement, I assumed it was speculation on his part. I personally see it differently. If Fornost Erain would be rebuilt, then surely the jewel of Gondor would be rebuilt in time.

"First, I'm sure Aragon..."

I think you have a whole different legendarium coming into this.

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

OK, mistake pruned XD

 

[Deleted member 12094]

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[Hisoka Morrow]

View attachment 7676

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Oh, s*it, nvm, just let me prune it tomorrow 😅😅😅😅😅

First, I'm sure Aragorn has authorized local governments such as promoting Shire county's or Ithilien's provincial power(Notice that Ithilien has no prince before, Faramir is the first Ithilien prince). This means that Aragorn must got much more immediate budget for Arnor's rebuild.
In addition, equalization for local development has been proved important by the Angamar and Wainriders war(Notice these 2 threat were all grown in secret and too late to get found out). So the Gondor Senate will hardly slash the budget.
About the human resources, I personally guess maybe the hobbits will play an important role instead of the Numenorains. After all, colonization for virgin lands takes very very very much immigrants, and the hobbits suffered fewer in comparison with other sources of human resources from the War of the Ring. Of course basic bureau will still rely on the Numenorains who have the advantage of all kinds of talent and ability.