Yes. But this makes me even more mad. To blow her character way out of proportion and make me gag on my popcorn and howl over it for the next two years only to script her exactly as they should have to begin with only compounds my anger. He tried to tell the story better (and failed) and then went right back to Tolkien. Well the first movie was already spoiled. The fact that he even filmed Arwen at Helm's Deep makes me want to throttle him. Thanks, PJ for realising what the purists knew all along....Tolkien's way was better.Greenwood said:Ah Thorin, but since the first film Arwen hasn't picked up as much as a steak knife in TTT or ROTK as far as I can remember, but you are still referring to her as Xen-Arwen and crying "blasphemy". I would think you might be pleased at the possibility that your outrage was passed on to PJ and he did not place Arwen at Helm's Deep or the Pelennor Fields.
I remember saying two years ago that just because they filmed scenes of Arwen fighting didn't mean they would end up in the film. You were rather vehement in insisting that there was no way they wouldn't use them. Instead of being glad and giving ole PJ some credit for "seeing the light", you are still bashing him for "Xen-Arwen" and "blasphemy".
BTW, nice to "see" you again.
In the second two films it seemed every time I got into the mood of the film something stupid or annoying appeared on screen to jolt me out of it. It wasn’nt only in a few places.Ol'gaffer said:I can. I have no problems what so ever with the scenes, and most short, that did not destroy the movies atleast to me.
Cameo appearances in films by characters who are not later seen are common enough in books and films. They aren’t necessarily either useful or useless. It depends on the story. That characters are not reused does tend to open up tale, suggesting that what we are reading or viewing is part of an interlace of many other tales. Gildor and Farmer Maggott and Glorfindel and Imrahil and Arwen are all characters of that kind in the book.I'm sorry for you that the Glorfindel extreme horse race feat. the black riders wasn't in the movie, but I personally would have found it useless to introduce just some elf to the public who haven't read the books, only to have him dissappear after that scene.
But Frodo would have worked better in terms of the theme of the story as a whole. Jackson wanted to make the love story more central. It began well enough, then trailed off into confusion. All kinds of things would have worked well, including what Tolkien himself wrote. But as to what occurred ...Arwen worked well in that scene.
And if you watch the films mindlessly then you will not understand. If you don’t accept my perceptions in the other thread, respond there. If you do accept it, then ask yourself why you didn’t notice something so obvious yourself.But, if you hate that scene, I can't change your mind about it.
jallan said:Cameo appearances in films by characters who are not later seen are common enough in books and films. They aren’t necessarily either useful or useless. It depends on the story. That characters are not reused does tend to open up tale, suggesting that what we are reading or viewing is part of an interlace of many other tales. Gildor and Farmer Maggott and Glorfindel and Imrahil and Arwen are all characters of that kind in the book.
I think he might have showed up in the film- a fellow with long blond hair says something to the effect that "It is just as the Lord Denethor has long foreseen" when Gandalf says that Mordor is about to attack. He is also seen at the walls when Faramir and co. ride out, and I believe he is the one who brings the stricken Faramir to Denethor (as Imrahil does in the books). My bet is that this was Imrahil, but I can't seem to find him on the credits at IMDB.Greenwood said:Imrahil -- I have always thought of as a significant character in the book and I kind of missed him in the movie (but not enough to make a difference to me)
jallan said:In the second two films it seemed every time I got into the mood of the film something stupid or annoying appeared on screen to jolt me out of it. It wasn#&8217nt only in a few places.Cameo appearances in films by characters who are not later seen are common enough in books and films. They aren’t necessarily either useful or useless. It depends on the story. That characters are not reused does tend to open up tale, suggesting that what we are reading or viewing is part of an interlace of many other tales. Gildor and Farmer Maggott and Glorfindel and Imrahil and Arwen are all characters of that kind in the book.But Frodo would have worked better in terms of the theme of the story as a whole. Jackson wanted to make the love story more central. It began well enough, then trailed off into confusion. All kinds of things would have worked well, including what Tolkien himself wrote. But as to what occurred ...
And if you watch the films mindlessly then you will not understand. If you don’t accept my perceptions in the other thread, respond there. If you do accept it, then ask yourself why you didn’t notice something so obvious yourself.
Greenwood said:However, many purists go further and say that the films are bad as films and that Jackson is a bad director.
joxy said:I haven't seen one who says the entire films are bad, and that PJ is a totally bad director. The opinion on that subject is that the films have SOME cinematic faults, and that, therefore, PJ is not FULLY competent in his job. That really isn't such a dramatic claim; perfection, and even near-perfection, are quite rare commodities in most professions.
joxy said:And now Lee, one PJ's most vocal defenders, despite, or maybe because of his part, is demolished altogether - now tell me PJ is not incompetent.
Greenwood said:<Originally Posted by joxy
The opinion on that subject is that the films have SOME cinematic faults, and that, therefore, PJ is not FULLY competent in his job. That really isn't such a dramatic claim; perfection, and even near-perfection, are quite rare commodities in most professions.>
<Originally Posted by joxy And now Lee, one PJ's most vocal defenders, despite, or maybe because of his part, is demolished altogether - now tell me PJ is not incompetent.>
So which is it? Not FULLY competent or incompetent?
Saying PJ is an incompetent director most people would understand, I believe, is the same as saying he is a bad director.
competent (adj.) -- 1. having suitable or sufficient skill, knowledge, experience, etc., for some purpose; properly qualified.
2. adequate but not exceptional.
incompetent (adj.) -- 1. lacking qualification or ability; incapable.
2. characterized by or showing incompetence.
incompetent (adj) -- 1. insufficient, inadequate
2. of inadequate ability or fitness; not having the requisite capacity or qualification; incapable
Another excellent example of purist sectarianism: if you don't agree with me you are stupid! In particular, there is only one way to approach art. Again, the obsessive pseudo-realism, pseudo-objectivity: the demand that every detail must be explained, the parts are more important than the whole. The essence of the "Flight to the Ford" scene is that one horse with Arwen and Frodo is chased by the Nine. A realist perspective on this would demand that this is shot in a strict linear fashion, so you can see how each horse moves from A to B, with no breaks. A tracking shot. Or one step away from this, at least total realism in how the horses are positioned in relation to each other from one shot to another. By contrast, Jackson shoots a number of discontinuous shots of the horse chase, which give us a very powerful impression of a horse chase, with some pleasing symetries at times, and a great deal of dramatic tension, but ultimately not entirely realistic. But the demand for realism is again archaic: from the impressionists taking tentative steps, through to the modernist movement in the twenties, and the rise of abstract art, the demand for realism has been swept aside. The modern movie is perhaps less forward thinking in this than other forms. But even the staple of the fightscene now is closer to ballet than a real life brawl. The Matrix has reinvented it completely, taking elegance, poise and style over the physicality of bruises and falling over.As presented the chace was scenically excellent. But Jackson’ eye candy that is dramatic only if the viewer doesn’t think. You have to watch mindlessly.
So do I enjoy them, and so did Tolkien, which is one of the many reasons why I admire Tolkien, and defend him, especially in matters of words.Greenwood said:I do enjoy these excursions into the meanings of words.
....while you may refer to levels of competence, the word incompetence is highly negative
....some "purists" show a great hostility to Jackson and the LOTR movies....
....if someone doesn't like the films....
See the above!Snaga said:When someone accuses another of incompetence, that is a general comment on their abilities as a person, not a specific reference to their actions at a particular point in time. If you want to be understood, use the language in the same way as everyone else.
Jackson shoots a number of discontinuous shots of the horse chase, which give us a very powerful impression of a horse chase, with some pleasing symetries at times, and a great deal of dramatic tension, but ultimately not entirely realistic. But the demand for realism is again archaic....
As of late the opinions of FADs have been towards the movie as a movie and 'hey, it ain't Tolkien, but I liked it!" Purists like myself and Mrs. Maggot can respect that and it is all subjective.Greenwood said:As I have said before, if someone doesn't like the films, that's an opinion and everyone is entitled to one. But you should leave it at that.
I do not know who you should see if you have a problem with the intricacies and vagaries of the English language, but I know it is not me. You are much closer to the source than I am.joxy said:If there are levels, or degrees, of competence, there should be levels, or degrees of incompetence!
joxy said:Some people here have accused other people of accusing them of "blasphemy" against Tolkien(!). I wouldn't want the idea to go around that PJ is also a figure of infallible divinity!
<1> No problem - it's fun, as you said earlier!Greenwood said:<1>....if you have a problem with the intricacies and vagaries of the English language....
<2>If something is incombustible, it doesn't catch fire and burn, period.
I<3> cringe everytime I think of the possibility of Bingo Baggins and Trotter the Ranger.
<4>....the "purist" position is that Jackson should have just taken everything as close to verbatim as the different mediums allowed.
Thorin said:As of late the opinions of FADs have been towards the movie as a movie and 'hey, it ain't Tolkien, but I liked it!" Purists like myself and Mrs. Maggot can respect that and it is all subjective.
Thorin said:FADs of old, however, weren't limiting it to just their opinion. They were trying to use the old 'spirit of Tolkien' argument and what Tolkien could have meant, or what was implied to justify a movie change.
Thorin said:I don't think it is fair to trod down the purist for stating and explaining his opinion in comparing the movie to the book.
Thorin said:Let me give you an example. Some FADs of old were butting heads with me over the whole Arwen Ford Fiasco. Instead of saying things like, "I liked it though it wasn't what Tolkien intended and it served a cinematic purpose" the argument presented was that because Arwen was Luthien's descendant and Luthien did some warrior things like rescue Beren from Morgoth's lair, it was wholly in Arwen's character to meet the fellowship, sneak up on a ranger and defy the Nine.
It's not just that Arwen is Luthien's descendant, it is that Tolkien very explicitly and deliberately says that Arwen and Luthien have the same character- they act alike. This has to be a meandering into the deepest level of the puritanism, where even the author gets it wrong!Thorin said:
Aragil said:This has to be a meandering into the deepest level of the puritanism, where even the author gets it wrong!
Firstly Jallan specifically attacks the chase scene as "mediocre" because "nothing flowed", because the Nine look (to him) as though they were trying not to catch Arwen; and because the Nine reigned in their horses to confront Arwen.joxy said:I'm not clear what you're trying to establish about the chase. You seem to be defending a case either that hasn't even been presented, or that was won before it started. Jallan says it looks excellent, so do I, with minor reservations about the casting of a potato sack as Frodo, and Arwen's comical scar. PJ did a fine job of the spectacle, as he usually does. It's only when Jallan, and I, and many others, add thought to the process, that things fall apart: the whole context of the event is a nonsense, and we have given the details of the nonsense so many times that I refrain from yet another repeat. Realism as against impressionism doesn't come into the matter; it isn't an issue.
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