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Purity and the Critics

joxy said:
LOL!
How specific, and detailed, and lengthy, AND fascinating, can anyone be?
How you guys find the time and energy to write at such length, alone, beats me.
That's praise, not criticism, but I have the feeling that such efforts really deserve a location other than this.

I couldn't agree more. :) Perhaps there's a newspaper or magazine that would publish this as an article! :D It's certainly good enough.


Goro Shimura said:
I dunno. You could name names, I guess.

Is he slamming Mrs. Maggot here...?

First off, naming names would be to no purpose, as his point has nothing to do with individuals, and everything to do with explaining and discussing a greater phenomenon as a whole.

Second of all, he's slamming nobody. I don't know if you read the whole thing, but there is in NO WAY any indication that he's trying to criticise either the Purists or the "Others"...

Goro Shimura said:
Exactly, Lotho.

Snaga's posts are well written, but I think they sidestep that best concerns of the "sanest" purists-- and then he characterizes the whole lot of them with some sort of detached psychobabble...


I really don't think Snaga's trying to say people are insane. I think he's trying (and has done an excellent job) of explaining certain aspects of Tolkien fandom, but if you noticed he's not trying to crucify anyone who IS a purist, or indeed to imply there's something wrong with them...

I think you're reading too much negative attitude into things.

nthman said:
Snaga, that is the most intelligent thing I have read on this forum.....
Take the movies for what they are, no harm has been done to the books, they are still on my bookshelf untouched by the movies.

I would agree! This is one of the most intelligent, well-thought out well-researched things I've seen in a LOOONG time. :)

As for your second comment, I agree. The books are not damaged by the movies, they still remain the same. But I think sometimes book-fans perceive a certain damage being done...and retaliate.




I've really enjoyed this thread, and as Gandalf The Grey and Snaga both pointed out, the parallels between the Tolkien's Purists vs. Non-Purists, and X-Files shippers vs. noromos is fascinating.
Having been a long standing X-Phile I find it interesting to compare my attitude to each.
I am not a purist, there are things I don't like about PJ's adaptation, but I recognise it as HIS adaptation and take it as that. This doesn't mean I don't think that he did things wrong, but that I accept it for what it is, and love it at face value, as a cinematic adaptation separate from but still of the original context.
I'm also not a shipper. I wanted Mulder and Scully to hook up, but not in a way that would shift the plot, ulitmately I wanted the plot to remain focuesd on the paranormal/alien aspect. This didn't mean I didn't want Mulder and Scully (just tried to type Sculder and Mully...hehe) to end up in bed together (and not in the wishy-washy did they do it sort of way they had in occasional episodes), but I didn't want the shift to change. This didn't mean I would flame Chris Carter for not "getting it right"...I accepted it for what it was and moved on.

Maybe this is because I'm not a Tolkien-Scholar, and I'm not a Rabid X-Phile. I'm a run of the mill fan, more interested than most, but not enough to be obsessive.
Sure, I've seen every X-Files episode ever made, sure I'm working my way through Tolkien's mythology and hope to one day have finished them all, but I don't run the extreme on either end.

Maybe time will change that? Who knows.

Anyway, I just realised I contributed nothing to the thread with this post.
But I spent a long time writing it so I'm going to keep it up for a day or so until I feel like I don't care enough anymore and can delete it without feeling I've wasted my time. :)
 
Goro Shimura said:
Exactly, Lotho.
Purists love the books. They are irritated with the films. They want to discuss it. This is the place to do it. What's the big deal??

As you imply, there is no big deal. It's lovely when people can engage in a lively discussion without getting personal, and it's really a shame when they don't.

I'm wondering more and more what it was like in this forum BEFORE Peter Jackson came on the scene. I have this fantasy that this forum was — pre-Jackson — a kind of isolated monastery, the private purvue of a very small select group of monk-like Tolkien specialists, cognoscenti, aficionados, wonks — whatever term fits — and then PJ came on the scene and all hell broke loose!

Suddenly there were these FILM LOVERS overrunning the joint, these upstarts, these "mobs of rabble" ;), and fights started to break out between the original inhabitants — "the bookies" and these pipsqueaks — "the filmies." Suddenly it was turf wars! Purist against non-purist, and who knows if it will ever end. It will probably die down once the triology is well out of the movie theaters. Of course if there's a remake, or PJ does The Hobbit, or releases some superdeluxe LOTR DVD set of the EEs with ALL the scenes put back, it'll all crank up again... Wheeee, wotta life!:p

Lotho
 
Aragil wrote:

Of course there are always outliers to any general tendency, it just strikes me as odd that I would be an exemplar of the purist mind in my reading of the books, but an anti-exemplar of the purist mind when it comes to the movies.
I count myself in the same category! But then I was not attempting to account for people who do like the movies. This seems to me a rather less unusual, and therefore less interesting phenomenon. As for why you specifically are as you are; I would need to know you better than I do. In any case my piece is about tendencies. There are other tendencies in the world, and noone is only a member of TTF with no existence in other communities. In evitably people behave in ways influenced and structure by the sum total of their relationship with others and not merely by a part.

Mrs Maggot wrote:
And as for those of us "purists" who "continue" to post (hatefully?) when we should be willing to "move on": might I suggest that we are not posting in a vacuum? Rather we are responding to others who are posting on the other side of the issue! Why should we be prepared to accept their position and "move on" when obviously they are not willing to do the same? It would seem, therefore, that what is happening is not raving lunatics hatefully attacking either Mr. Jackson or his films, but simply members of the forum engaging in a discussion/debate about them. Is it a waste of time? Surely. Does it suggest such fanaticism that the individuals involved (purists) have no life but Tolkien and his book? If that is so, then I would suggest that those on the other side of the debate (FADs) have no life but Jackson and his films! Either way, the one could not exist without the other, so all concerned should be very careful before throwing any stones at either side!
I neither believe that purists are lunatics, nor that they have no life beyond Tolkien. In seeking to account for behaviours, there is the implicit assumption that those behaviours are in fact rational, and therefore explicable. I observe that the 'fanaticism' (as you call it) about Tolkien tends towards an inward-looking and defensive attitude, but I do not wish to generalise that to other aspects of people's lives. I lack the data to make such generalisations. However I would argue that it is a more expected phenomenon (from the perspective of modern western culture) to see people who like something spending a lot of time discussing what they appreciate about it, than to see those who do not spending so much time attacking it. It is unlikely that fans of something will wish to 'move on' because it is something from which they derive pleasure.
 
Hey GG, you have a great sense of humor! And it's obvious you're a man of great intelligence and discernment since you agree with me!;):p

One of these days we'll have to get together and discuss the finer points of emoticons! (And thanks for the big laughs!)

Lotho
 
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In my case, my disappointment in these films is easily explained and, in fact, I have done it on a film thread, perhaps even this one, I don't remember. However, it is quite simple: for me, the characters are everything. If I don't "like" the characters either because of poor acting and/or writing or the fact that they are the type of characters in whom I would have no interest, then I cannot work up any enthusiasm for their story whether it is in a book or a film or a play. This doesn't mean that the characters all have to be "good" (The Godfather I & II are perfect examples of interesting and engaging characters who are certainly not "saints"), but they do have to be worthy of my attention. Watching films about anti-heroes or politically correct types postulating psychobabble, p.c. drivel or self-absorbed navel gazing, causes me to quickly change the channel or avoid seeing the film no matter how "great" its critical and popular acclaim.

In the case of these films, Jackson has taken characters whom I have loved since I was in my 20s - some 40 years ago - and, to my mind, denegrated or made of at least some of them the sort of present day "cultural icons" with which, frankly, I have little or no patience. Is it any wonder then, that at times these films can be downright painful for me? I shouldn't think that this situation would be difficult to understand. Put it this way: how many of you younger folks would wish to sit through 4 hours of Lawrence Welk playing waltzes and polkas or a chamber orchestra playing Bach? Even I wouldn't want to do that despite the fact that there are many people for whom both of these situations would be considered an especial joy!

Anyway, I hope that this helps you to understand that despite the stunning beauty, great special effects, fine acting, exciting story etc. etc. etc., I simply cannot "like" these films. I don't "hate" them, but the annoyance factor that Jackson rouses in me with his portrayal of far too many of the characters outweighs these other - and to my mind, less important - considerations. Now, if you still cannot understand my feelings, what can I say but "to each his own".
 
Snaga said:
I don't mean to imply that purists consciously refuse to like the movies, but that the way in which they have constructed their interpretation of Tolkien's work, and its place in their value system makes it impossible for them to like it.

Now you're talking. I think we're coming to the same conclusion-- just from different directions.

A theory that I put forward in my thread was this:

People that do not accept the premise of Moral Absolutes will not be bothered by the changes. I am beginning to wonder if they can even understand the depth and significance of the changes-- sort of like Sauron being unable to imagine the free peoples destroying the Ring.

Contrariwise, people that share with Tolkien the fundamentals of his world view will be extremely irritated by the changes.
 
by Lotho Pimple

I'm wondering more and more what it was like in this forum BEFORE Peter Jackson came on the scene. I have this fantasy that this forum was — pre-Jackson — a kind of isolated monastery, the private purvue of a very small select group of monk-like Tolkien specialists, cognoscenti, aficionados, wonks — whatever term fits — and then PJ came on the scene and all hell broke loose!

I first found this forum a short time before the first film came out. I have read LOTR countless times over the last approximately forty years though I had never been active in any Tolkien societies or groups. I hadn't even heard of the films until only a month or so before the first one was released. I found this forum because I was curious to see how Tolkien fans were anticipating the films. To my amazement I found that many were almost rabid in their attacks on the films and Peter Jackson and the films had yet to be seen by anyone! My wife and I saw the first film the day it came out and we loved it. It was not exactly Tolkien and I saw many things that I would have done differently, but also being a film buff I was stunned at the job Jackson had done in bringing Middle Earth to life. I continued to look in on this forum as a guest for about another week or so to see if there was any change in attitudes now that people had actually seen the film. I suppose that I wasn't too surprised to discover that those self-styled "purists" who had been most severe in their attacks on the films and Jackson (and many of the attacks on Jackson were very puerile and of a highly personal nature) still expressed the same negative views as before them film came out. In fact some purists would proudly proclaim how they had no intention of seeing the film (and some still do) but still felt free to attack the film and Jackson. I initially joined the Forum out of a sense of outrage -- not at the attacks on the films, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and Lord knows there have been many books and films that many people have loved that I hated -- but at the treatment I saw being given to people new to Tolkien who saw the film and then came to the Forum to learn more about Tolkien as they read the books. I was horrified to see these people being ridiculed and being told to go away and read the books before they asked a question or said anything. I have loved the world of Middle Earth since reading The Hobbit as a child. I spent years trying to get my hads on LOTR back in the period when it was hard to find (before the ACE paperback editions made the books available to the general public) and I was appalled to see new readers and discoverers of Tolkien being treated this way and I believe Tolkien would be also.

I was active on the Forum for a while and Aragil and I fought many a battle together (side by side for the most part) but then the press of my job forced me to leave for the last year and a half or so. Over this holiday season I have had more time and decided to check in again. I have for the most part avoided the movie sections and stayed in the LOTR section of the book forum. I am pleased to see how many new readers have been brought to Middle Earth by the movies. In occasionally looking in at the movie discussions I have seen that the positions of the purists I saw two years ago have for the most part been unchanged. Having come across Snaga's posting on this thread though I felt compelled to add my few comments and to try to answer Lotho's question. And while I do not accept 100 percent of Snaga's position, I think it is for the most part very insightful.
 
nthman said:
Did PJ perhaps miss some things in his interpretation of the story? Probably, but I'm not sure what he missed and what he consciously changed because he is working with a different media and trying to appeal to a broader audience. Take the movies for what they are, no harm has been done to the books.
There may be some changes which were necessary because of the different media, but I have yet to see a convincing argument to that effect for any specific change.
The issue of appealing to a broader audience cannot be justified. The books have always had an enormous, broad, audience; why should changes be needed in order to make the films more appealing to any audience?
No-one has said the films change the books; the idea is a nonsense, and the statement that no harm has been done to the books is a fact, a truism. These statements have been made before, and I have never understood the reason or purpose of them. Water is wet, the books haven't been harmed, so what?!

Greenwood said:
....many were almost rabid in their attacks on the films and Peter Jackson....
....felt free to attack the film and Jackson....
....people being ridiculed and being told to go away and read the books....
I was appalled to see new readers and discoverers of Tolkien being treated this way....
....the positions of the purists I saw two years ago have for the most part been unchanged.
I came here after you left.
I have never seen any of those "rabid attacks", "attacks on the films and Jackson", "people ridiculed", "appalling treatment".
From the last sentence I quote you appear to be saying that you still find these features. I say you are mistaken.
People are here to discuss the topic of this forum: the book "versus" the films; they have always done so in a civilised manner,
and I am sure they will continue that way.
 
Joxy,

Indeed it is not as bad as it was two years ago, but I do see some of the same attitudes. For instance in the "My God it was Horrible (III)" thread we have:
A Plague. A Pestilence. Peter Jackson deserves to see King Kong bomb in the box office, since he showed how well the term 'hack' fits him when his master plan of making movies of The Lord of the Rings to get his foot in the door for King Kong.

Not exactly discussion in a "civilized" manner. And from a thread discussing Jackson perhaps filming The Hobbit:
And your momma PJ! I swear, if you touch the hobbit I will cut you 'another'.

BTW, Joxy, you say "People are here to discuss the topic of this forum: the book "versus" the films", yet I see in another of your posts on another thread made yesterday that you have evidently not yet seen the ROTK movie. Have you seen it since yesterday? If not, how can you discuss the "book versus the film"?
 
Goro Shimura said:
People that do not accept the premise of Moral Absolutes will not be bothered by the changes. I am beginning to wonder if they can even understand the depth and significance of the changes-- sort of like Sauron being unable to imagine the free peoples destroying the Ring.

Contrariwise, people that share with Tolkien the fundamentals of his world view will be extremely irritated by the changes.
I am not at all sure that your first statement is correct. I suspect you are trying to assert your moral superiority over those who do not share your opinion again. Moreoever, there is a big difference between understanding the changes, and agreeing with you about their depth and significance. Again, your starting point is that there is, in your mind, only one way of interpreting the text (or at least only one that is 'correct'). And similarly, only one way of comparing movie and text. It is my observation that the dissension on this issue (and so many others) shows this to be false. You believe in absolute moral values; I observe that moral values are culturally produced, and are not the same in all cultures and all times.

As I observed, in my original piece, there is a tendency to try to use the author as arbiter. But of course, you cannot actually put a question to the author, only interpret his words. You interpret his words as meaning that you (and all who agree with you!) share 'the fundamentals of his world view'. But do not agree that this is knowable by you, as this requires you to interpret the text of his letters to extract what you believe to be 'the fundamentals'. But it is your value system and cultural assumptions that lead you to select one aspect as fundamental and not others, and then to map those percieved believes onto your own (and those of others). This is a highly subjective exercise. This is readily attested to by the Patrick Curry book 'Defending Middle Earth' in which he extracts the 'fundamentals' to be a kind of deep environmentalism and rejection of organised religion. This is not what I understand your views to be (but if you have read that book, it would be interesting to hear your reaction to it).

Mrs Maggott: I am quite ready to accept that you feel strongly about the characters. I too would have created a different set of movies, were I in the directors chair. Leaving aside my lack of technical ability, it is evident that we all see the characters differently. While I find these differences interesting, even fascinating, you are 'annoyed', and find it 'painful'. When you describe the sorts of characters you dislike ('anti-heroes or politically correct types postulating psychobabble, p.c. drivel or self-absorbed navel gazing') your words seem highly value-laden, which was of course my main point.

Joxy and nthman, your exchange is interesting and worth a reply. How could making a movie from a book be seen as anything other than a change? In making a movie, Peter Jackson is making a wholly different work. To ask 'were changes necessary?' is to ask 'was a movie necessary?' This is rather an empty question to my mind, lending itself to mainly economic analysis. To argue there are no changes dictated by the form is evidently nonsense: the addition of moving pictures and music, sound effects and so forth would be the first few items on a very long list. The moment you cast someone in the role of Frodo, you change an aspect. You remove the ability of the reader/viewer to create the imaginary Frodo in their head. I could argue that this was absolutely central, and decide to shoot my movie from Frodo's viewpoint, and never actually show his face. Others would view this as preposterous. But then I could go further and say, that fundamentally the story is about Frodo's journey; in which case the encounter with Tom Bombadil, and the Barrow Wright should stay, but I may lose all the less important stuff about Rohan, Saruman, and Pelennor Fields. Am I wrong?

Of course the answer is that it is a seperate work, and to the extent that my imaginary version 'speaks' to you, and you draw from it something that is satisfying then that is good (for you). And if not, then the answer is maybe another story/text will resound more. Why do teenagers like Peter Jackson movies so much? Teenagers spend much of their lifes feeling trapped and bored, wanting some excitement with their friends. And they are often idealistic, and the notion that the relatively unimportant can do some good in the world is therefore highly appealing. This is drawn from the books, and carries over very well.

But my version might decide that what I wanted to explore was temptation, solitude, singularity and love. I might decide to emphasise Bombadil's strange uniqueness, how he manages to find happiness through his love for Goldberry and his love for his land. I would contrast this with Frodo's estrangement from the Shire and his desire to escape its prosaic life. I would also draw out how he is, because of the ring and the need for secrecy, unable to be wholly open with the other hobbits, and how his relationship with Sam starts out with a divide based on class origin. Through my tale I would then show him seeing others in the Fellowship learning friendship and companionship, and gaining an insight into how the elves also 'belong' somehow to Arda, and I would show him desiring that affinity and love ever more, but then he has to break the Fellowship in order to go to Mordor. And so on... introducing new aspects, as the journey continue and Gollum is introduced.

Now all of this is only to illustrate that I can take as my starting point the text of Lord of the Rings and create my own text based upon it. It is of course open to all of us to like or dislike each version. I suspect that my version would appall Mrs Maggott with its 'navel-gazing' - but I maybe wrong! I doubt it would have so much teen appeal as Peter Jacksons. But I have to insist on the impossibility of recreating the book as a movie. To say that it is not the same is a truism. It could not be the same. If someone who sincerely believed that they had the same 'fundamental beliefs' as Tolkien undertook this task, they too would make a movie that other people would be not like. Indeed, I am fairly sure that Peter Jackson and his team DO believe they have captured the essence of the books. What they have in fact done, is created something based on their interpretation of the text.

I quite like what they have done.

Joxy, I find it interesting that you are so eager to deny the perceptions of others. Greenwood and other observe what they percieve to be extreme behaviour, but you deny that it takes place. The most likely explanation is that what you perceive to be normal and reasonable, is not seen that way by others. This again is suggestive of the ability of people to view the same texts in radically different ways based on their perception of what is normal.
 
Greenwood said:
For instance in the "My God it was Horrible (III)" thread we have:....Not exactly discussion in a "civilized" manner.
And from a thread discussing Jackson perhaps filming The Hobbit:
....you have evidently not yet seen the ROTK movie....If not, how can you discuss the "book versus the film"?
I haven't seen, and can't find that MGIWH thread, but I agree it was not up to our standard!
I don't understand the "Hobbit" quotation; what language is it in?!
I haven't seen ROTK. I don't go often into the ROTK section, but when I do enter into ROTK discussions either there or in this section, I restrict myself to comments on details that others have given about ROTK - I trust their reports to be accurate.

Snaga said:
I find it interesting that you are so eager to deny the perceptions of others. Greenwood and other observe what they perceive to be extreme behaviour....
I do deny that postings here are made in terms of the "rabid attacks", "attacks on the films and Jackson", "people ridiculed", "appalling treatment", to which Greenwood referred.
I have denied similar allegations from others, and have asked for examples to challenge my denials.
Greenwood has now quoted one example, from a posting which I cannot find, and I have made a slight concession to it! Other examples will be welcome as always.
Specifically, "other observers" have made repeated references to "hate". My "perception", and that of Mrs M and others, is that those references do not exist here.
 
Greenwood said:
Not exactly discussion in a "civilized" manner

Take off your gandalf hat and leave the book and flashlight at home and pay attention next time.

Go on, post away. But do not expect anyone to take you seriously with those kinds of opinions

Both from TTFers supporting the movies. Just wanted to point out there is "rudeness" from fans of the movies as well as the books. Sometimes debating can do that to ya. :p
 
Snaga said:
In no particular order, the criticisms that can be laid at Tolkiens door are that his works are childish and simplistic in their portrayal of the complexity of human nature, and the nature of good and evil....But Tolkien embodies evil as an external force. He also consigns certain peoples and creatures as inherently evil, whilst others are innately morally superior.....Finally we have the long lingering death of the novel, stretching to seven chapters of loose ends being tied up at a painfully slow rate.
But this is what is so appealing to people. In our world of 'grey areas' and moral lackness, we are intrigued by a world where despite the short comings of the characters, black is black and white is white. Evil is evil and good is good and good will triumph overall eventually. This has been the staple of fable, myth and fairy tale for ages. Why do you think they've lasted for so long? And the "slow lingering death" as you call it is only for those who have not taken the time to immerse themselves in not just the story of LoTR, but the mythology. We have to see how everything ends because we feel a part of that. It is the necessary culmination of what we feel for and with the characters. Without their fulfillment of their destiny, we ourselves cannot feel fulfilled.

Snaga said:
But although the detail works as literary effect, for some the desire to plunge ever deeper into Middle Earth becomes a quest for ever greater understanding of the detail, to a point where the original text is viewed not as story which sweeps you along (a whole) but as a repository of facts about Middle Earth (a collection of parts). Thus the text becomes fragmented, and deconstructed in the mind of the devotee who interlocks information in other works prepared for publication by Christopher Tolkien, which are themselves fragments. Their interest becomes no longer literary or textual, but pseudo-historical or even pseudo-linguistic.
And that's the rub. Tolkien didn't just write a good fantasy novel. He created a world, an entire myth the like of which religions have been creating for millenia. Therefore, the way we look at LoTRs is much different then looking at a Stephen King novel. It is a history that we are taking part in and that Tolkien is allowing us to be part of. How can one NOT internalize such a grand sweeping epic into their lives? This is why it is harder for the purist to accept certain changes though we can fully accept the changes to "Jurassic Park" or "The Shining".
Snaga said:
Thus status is derived from the ability to cite passages, and to quote Tolkien. Other knowledge, other perspectives and other works are rejected, not per se, but as inapplicable. This leads to the drive to purity that is so very evident amongst Tolkien fans. It provides the sectarian sense of community, the feeling of 'them' and 'us'.
I don't think so. It is that others who have the power to present LoTR in some other media, may not appreciate the depth and richness of a history that we all have come to love and integrate into our imaginary minds. There is worry that those images that make LoTR what it is will not be shown the respect that it deserves, nor that consideration is given as to why Tolkien wrote what he did the way he did. And there is the inherent fear that all fans of the book have that this medium will tarnish and affect their own world they have internalized. Movies are a powerful medium to do this. How many of us who have been reading the book for decades frustratingly find their plump, rotound view of Frodo being replaced by Elijah Wood's weepy blue eyes? Or the noble, handsome look of Elrond replaced by Hugo Weaving's gaunt, frowning Matrix-y visage?

Snaga said:
Firstly the movies themselves are an offense, since they are not by Tolkien. This means they must be rejected a priori, as a falsehood. But then, each 'deviation' may be unpicked with the assumption that it is 'wrong' at best, at worst 'heretical'. Certain omissions may be tolerated (e.g. Tom Bombadil) but expansion is not acceptable, and neither is any revision.
I don't agree with this at all. None of the purists here feel any sort of 'untouchable' status' to any attempt to portray LoTR. Were that the case, then the purist would have a problem with any other reader reading it. By your definition, the purist would not even attempt to try and create any sort of medium of LoTR himself were he even given the means, money, and time to do so. The issue is keeping the intent, characters, plot and meanings of the author intact when doing such an undertaking. Something the movies failed at miserably in many instances just as they succeeded in other areas.

Snaga said:
Again, the obsession with the minutae is more important than the whole. But more importantly, the authoritarian attachment to a single version of the truth: that the 'canon' may not be changed, or polluted.
Again, nonsense. Reasonable changes are acceptable when one must consider the medium one is working with. However, when one makes an adaptation, there is a reasonable assumption both by adaptor and viewer that truthfulness and faithfulness to the source are a consideration. When one makes unnecessary changes when one could have stayed true to the book, that is unacceptable. Especially when characters, plots and meanings are altered by those changes.

Snaga said:
Because by attacking the movies, the devotees, the purist assert their own purity. They assert that they belong, that they continue to defy modernity, the critics, and the polluters of Hollywood. It is not the act of criticising the movies that is important, but the symbolism of the act.
No, it is calling something for what it is. It is speaking out of respect for a grand work that was supposed to be adapted faithfully. When it is not done so, it is every fan's right to speak their piece as to why it was not acceptable. Just as the movies should be praised when Tolkien is captured perfectly (or even decently) which it has in many instances and has been lauded on this forum by many purists.

To me, we are all here because of what Tolkien means to us. As fans, it is negligent for us to speak out when necessary meanings and characters are changed and altered (especially needlessly) then to blindly accept and praise such changes on the basis of arguments like "He needed to appeal to a broader audience" or "You can't expect it to be like the book". Such arguments show an even greater sense of 'puristic' thinking then book purists.
 
I am beginning to believe that what such terms as "rabid attacks" and "hating Peter Jackson" and "ridiculing" people can really be translated into: "What's the matter with you purists?! Why won't you accept our contention that the films are the best thing since sliced bread?!! Why do you persist even in light of all of our perfectly logical explanations in being so @$#^$ unreasonable??!!!"

In other words, because purists don't "go along" and we keep countering points made by FADs and we show no signs of admitting that we are wrong, wrong wrong and that the FADs are right, right right - why, we are engaging in "rabid attacks" and "filled with hate" and "ridiculing" all those nice, reasonable FADs!
 
Thorin said:
However, when one makes an adaptation, there is a reasonable assumption both by adaptor and viewer that truthfulness and faithfulness to the source are a consideration. When one makes unnecessary changes when one could have stayed true to the book, that is unacceptable. Especially when characters, plots and meanings are altered by those changes.
the one change that i think best represents something that there was absolutely NO REASON to change is the time until frodo sails into the undying lands. in the book, it is two years, in the movies four. that number is 100% arbitrary to a film audience. i constantly ask for what reason did this need to be changed? if PJ was willing to change such a small thing because he thought it improved the story, what of larger things. this really calls into question:

did peter jackson include truthfullness and faithfullness to the source in the filming of his movies?

no, he did not.

and the arguement of the purists has always been, that if he had done this the movies would have been BETTER. not all purists believe the movies were all bad. as clearly they are far superior to most movies.

many purists just get too emotional and dismiss the film as rubbish. but they are still right when they say that changing where the sword is reforged represents a deviation from the book that was not necessary.
 
-K- said:
the one change that i think best represents something that there was absolutely NO REASON to change is the time until frodo sails into the undying lands. in the book, it is two years, in the movies four. that number is 100% arbitrary to a film audience. i constantly ask for what reason did this need to be changed?

I didn't see any "official explanation" for that, but I suppose it is to account for the last scene with both of Sam's kids greeting him. The blond girl is Sean Astin's daughter (or so I heard). If they wanted to use that particular girl in the scene (and I see no reason why they shouldn't), then the span of time had to be lengthened. Even hobbit children grow at normal speeds :D.

She makes a fine Elanor :).
 
OK, I have rummaged around some ancient threads. Here is a comment that was made in reference to Peter Jackson from two years ago:

I just think the man is a lying bag of bile (Euphemism altered as per isntruction from the Webmaster) as a person, a crappy screenplay author and a fat slob who couldn't even get a hair cut in time for the Golden Globes, I never said he was a bad director...
The above comment then became the occasion for a discussion as to whether it fit the definition of a "personal attack"! Now I have not seen anything on the recent threads that fall to that level, but I still see comments that suggest that you cannot be a "true" lover of Tolkien's works and approve of the films.

I also think that threads like "What Tolkien himself would have thought ..." (http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?t=14580) where excerpts from a letter Tolkien wrote about a proposed Disney movie nearly fifty years ago are trotted out as "proof" of what Tolkien would think of these movies is exactly what Snaga is talking about.

quote from joxy
I restrict myself to comments on details that others have given about ROTK - I trust their reports to be accurate.

It seems to me that what you mean is you trust the negative reports to be accurate. If you have not seen the movie (movies?) yourself, how can you discuss them? Would you engage in a discussion in the book sections with someone who proudly proclaimed they had never read any of Tolkien's books and saw no reason to read them before discussing and criticizing them. Afterall, the person may have read many other books and might only restrict themselves to comments on details of Tolkien that others have given -- trusting their reports to be accurate of course. :)

joxy said:
I came here after you left.
I have never seen any of those "rabid attacks", "attacks on the films and Jackson", "people ridiculed", "appalling treatment".
From the last sentence I quote you appear to be saying that you still find these features. I say you are mistaken.
People are here to discuss the topic of this forum: the book "versus" the films; they have always done so in a civilised manner,
and I am sure they will continue that way.

joxy,

RE: "I have never seen any of those 'people ridiculed'" things on this forum and "they have always done so in a civilised manner". I just came across the following in the "Tolkien in the Movies" thread in this very section:
publicity stun[t], nothing more nothing less. did anyone even see or care about this tolkien sell-out.

i wonder how much jackson paid tolkien to sell-out his grandfather's legacy, it hardly legitimises the jackson work. its like getting einstein's hypothetical grand daughter who would have had an english degree, to speak about physics and the laws of relativity.

i mean do these FADS even "think" about what they write? i mean the act of writing should trigger "some" thought process right?

emphasis added, and please note, the above was not said by joxy and I do not mean to imply it was

The interesting thing here is that you have posted, several times, on that thread. Do you not consider the above ridicule? Is it discussion in a civilized manner?
 
Mrs. Maggott said:
I am beginning to believe that what such terms as "rabid attacks" and "hating Peter Jackson" and "ridiculing" people can really be translated into: "What's the matter with you purists?! Why won't you accept our contention that the films are the best thing since sliced bread?!! Why do you persist even in light of all of our perfectly logical explanations in being so @$#^$ unreasonable??!!!"

In other words, because purists don't "go along" and we keep countering points made by FADs and we show no signs of admitting that we are wrong, wrong wrong and that the FADs are right, right right - why, we are engaging in "rabid attacks" and "filled with hate" and "ridiculing" all those nice, reasonable FADs!

I don't believe that to be the case. It is certainly not the case with me. I guess I'm a moderate in the middle of two extremes. But I do see a more terse language and a less appealing attitude from one side than the other. Then there is an effort to play semantics about it. A tree is known by it's fruit imo. In any case, if you don't like the movies that's fine. There are parts of them that made me wince, there are parts I loved too. But whatever your opinion on them, it doesn't make anyone involved with making them amoral, stupid, or evil. IMO it doesn't make the so called "Second tier Tolkiens" who did not oppose the films sell outs and frankly I'm very offended by such posts and can't see them as anything but hateful. By the way, HATE is word Joxy has forbidden me from using. Is it against the terms of service? I'm new here but is Joxy a moderator or administrator on this forum? Or is it just more of the snide attitude that is supposedly does not exist?
 
Greenwood said:
OK, I have rummaged around some ancient threads. Here is a comment that was made in reference to Peter Jackson from two years ago:


The above comment then became the occasion for a discussion as to whether it fit the definition of a "personal attack"! Now I have not seen anything on the recent threads that fall to that level, but I still see comments that suggest that you cannot be a "true" lover of Tolkien's works and approve of the films.
One also finds comments that suggest that any ‘true’ lover of Tolkien’s writing ought to appreciate the films.
I also think that threads like "What Tolkien himself would have thought ..." (http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?t=14580) where excerpts from a letter Tolkien wrote about a proposed Disney movie nearly fifty years ago are trotted out as "proof" of what Tolkien would think of these movies is exactly what Snaga is talking about.
The proposed film had nothing to with the Disney studios.

Have you read Tolkien’s comments?

The comments made by Tolkien are very interesting and give some idea of how he might have looked on an actual film adaptation of his work. They are pertinent and are very amusing as Tolkien obviously had a far better handle on cinematic storytelling than did Zimmerman.

Of course Tolkien was himself a very critical reader, more so as he grew older. One does not have to agree with Tolkien’s opinions on everything, even his opinions on his work. But they are pertinent.
It seems to me that what you mean is you trust the negative reports to be accurate. If you have not seen the movie (movies?) yourself, how can you discuss them? Would you engage in a discussion in the book sections with someone who proudly proclaimed they had never read any of Tolkien's books and saw no reason to read them before discussing and criticizing them. Afterall, the person may have read many other books and might only restrict themselves to comments on details of Tolkien that others have given -- trusting their reports to be accurate of course. :)
You have very good point here.

I agree with you on any particular comment relating solely to the third film by anyone who has not seen the film.

But that doesn’t answer the opinions of those who have seen all three films and who don’t have a high opinion of them.
 
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nthman said:
**** is word Joxy has forbidden me from using.
I HAVE NOT DONE THAT.
In another thread, "Tolkien in the Movies", I wrote:
"I've asked someone else on another thread not to use that word.
There is NO **** around here - period/full stop."

Please note: "asked", "someone else".

I, and others, have requested people who use the word either to justify it or to stop using it. That seems to me to be a very reasonable request. If you do not think so, then you are as free as you have always been, to use it if you wish, but you preclude yourself from criticising me, or anyone else, if we describe it as "rudeness", the quality which has been so freely applied to us.

Greenwood said:
<1>....excerpts from a letter Tolkien wrote about a proposed Disney movie nearly fifty years ago are trotted out as "proof" of what Tolkien would think of these movies....
<2> It seems to me that what you mean is you trust the negative reports to be accurate. If you have not seen the movie (movies?) yourself, how can you discuss them?
<1> No-one said anything about them being "proof" of anything.
They are though, without a doubt, very relevant to these topics, as they cover so many of the points that have actually arisen from PJ's films. The very least we are entitled to ask is: did PJ know the letter, and, if he did, why did he quite clearly go against some of the points that Tolkien made?
<2> Then you are mistaken in your seeming.
I see no reason to disbelieve any reports I see here.
I have never been to the United States or to the moon, but I am perfectly happy to discuss them, with other people who have been there, and with other people who haven't. I believe what I read and hear about those locations.
I read that the Saruman confrontation which PJ clearly enthused on in the TTT EE as being the grand opening scene of ROTK has actually been completely omitted. I believe that, and regard it as a massive criticism of the film.
I read that there is a weird argument over food between Sam and Frodo on Mount Doom. I believe that, and regard it as a criticism of the film.
Two examples: give me more.

About the quotation from fadhatter, which you gave without attribution:
Of course I did see the reference to "sell-out", but I didn't understand it; do you take that as a form of ridicule, and if, so, what does it mean, and why do you think it is ridicule?
If you were also referring to his general comment about "FADs", I can only reply that I assume it was meant to have a jocular intention, rather in the style of some of PJ's "jokes", and Ol'gaffer apparently saw the humour in it too, and responded in like manner from the other "side".

To Jallan: Do you really think it is impossible to discuss ROTK on the basis of of only reports read here, and elsewhere, and that only those who have seen it are qualified to discuss its details?
 

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