Rings of Power: Positive vs Negative

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Well, you can always watch the Soviet LOTR.

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

 

[Kolbitar]

One question I've always been fascinated by is "what is" (and "how to discuss") the necessary (and/or justifiable) vs. aesthetic changes made when moving from literature to film--which also implies the discussion of the place of "letter vs. spirit" of artistic interpretation--and this also might include a discussion of potential--or lost potential--as humans sense, feel, and sometimes even think in terms of potential, though articulation of all this might be difficult. Part of the problem in discussing the contradictions between literature and film arise when some inherently gravitate towards letter over spirit (or vice versa) or necessary vs. aesthetic change.

Dave Grohl is famous for playing his guitar like a drum. Jazz musicians often try to play one instrument like it's another. The interpretation cannot be the same, but...well, you probably can see where a conversation with this in mind begins. A song must be agreed upon and limitations of instrumentation must be acknowledged.

 

[Aldarion]

One question I've always been fascinated by is "what is" (and "how to discuss") the necessary (and/or justifiable) vs. aesthetic changes made when moving from literature to film--which also implies the discussion of the place of "letter vs. spirit" of artistic interpretation--and this also might include a discussion of potential--or lost potential--as humans sense, feel, and sometimes even think in terms of potential, though articulation of all this might be difficult. Part of the problem in discussing the contradictions between literature and film arise when some inherently gravitate towards letter over spirit (or vice versa) or necessary vs. aesthetic change.

Dave Grohl is famous for playing his guitar like a drum. Jazz musicians often try to play one instrument like it's another. The interpretation cannot be the same, but...well, you probably can see where a conversation with this in mind begins. A song must be agreed upon and limitations of instrumentation must be acknowledged.

I think basic standard that has to be met is keeping the "spirit" of the work, the message and authorial intent intact.

For example, not turning powerful ruler of an empire into a pathetic nobody, or having somebody who was already an excellent (if strong-headed) leader behave like a raging hormonal teenager.

Anything else is OK - for example, I don't really care that nobody had plate armor in the books...

 

[d4rk3lf]

If I can find this, and it distinctly references his fondness for hobbits becoming an item at that time, I'll certainly take it into consideration. I've not seen/found it yet in my (admittedly few) readings.

I did a quick search... here it is
Gandalf quote in Unfinished Tales:
""And then there was the Shire-folk. I began to have a warm place in my heart for them in the Long Winter,which none of you can remember.* They were very hard put to it then: one of the worst pinches they havebeen in, dying of cold, and starving in the dreadful dearth that followed. But that was the time to see theircourage, and their pity one for another. It was by their pity as much as by their tough uncomplainingcourage that they survived. I wanted them still to survive."

If we look at the very real political current and historical periods in the world we see every society leaving its people behind, letting them starve in the streets, killing them when they don't agree with the current powers, etc. Not to get political, but goodness.

Not in a tribe stage.
Not in a situation where tribe needs to move all the time, and (by their words) surrounded by many dangers on the road.
Or.. to be precise... very rarely in a tribe stage, where individual must really be a pure evil, so they are expelled from it.
Only later, when tribes becomes much bigger - like nations, is where you can see expelling in larger amount.

Remind me.. what was the reason in Rop that they wanted to expel hobbit girl, and all her family from the tribe?
Her father hurt his ankle, or something like that?
Does that makes sense?

Your words 'failed to show us...' and 'don't see any point so far...' hit the nail with the head...!
It's called Cinema. Or Story. Or Tale. We don't know the end before the beginning. We get to wait and see... and that, hopefully, with excitement. If we already knew, what would be the point?

Yeah, sure.
But in order to keep us interested in what's going to happen, something interesting needs to happen.
Imho, nothing interesting really happens with "Gandalf", and all the harfoots story...
You can always tell.. in good story.. when you can feel the writter have idea and where it will lead.

Let me tell you another example:
Game of Thrones.
I thought that events from Red Wedding will not lead us anyway... and I was right... totally pointless.. totally random... it broke the story.
You can't do random stuff like that, just for the audience shock, and not having BIG reason to cover for it.

Trust me: "I wish it had not happened in my time."
"But that is not given me to decide. All I can decide is what to do with the time that is given to me."

I don't think that way.
And if you think I think that way, you totally misjudged me.
I couldn't care less if it's in my time, or another time... they can do whatever they want.. I don't care.
But since it is in my time, I will tell my opinion of it, and I will tell if I think they are disrespectful to my favorite author.

They can not.. will not.. destroy the books.. and that is all that matters to me... the rest is of waaaaay less importance to me.

And trust me... there are some who are SO negative against RoP they are hurting not only themselves, but the people around them they are attracting into the same mindset.

I pity them.... they shouldn't allow one, awful series, affect their life in any way.
But I understand anger in some of them, because it's triggered by their love for Tolkien.

On the other side, I find Amazon response to that even much more negative.
Calling critics rasists, and all these names...

And really.. majority of the critics I hear, I actually agreed to it, because it's based on real criticism.
I rarely (if ever) heard someone talking about skin color (or didn't payed attention).
Majority of the time people complain on bad story, bad dialogues, stupid twists.. etc...
And you know what? They are completely right.

 

[JackTorrance]

Yeah, well, d4 has a point, ROP did destroy the books, but at least we will always have those and PJ's movies.

 

[Ent]

Yeah, well, d4 has a point, ROP did destroy the books, but at least we will always have those and PJ's movies.

Indeed, @d4rk3lf has many good points.
And now, we are discussing... and discussing in specific and specifics. Much better than debating or just making broad declarative statements about the whole, all over again.

I'm pondering replying to his last post item by item again, as there are really great things to mention and clarify.
Just need to find the time to do it.
"More at 11" as TV newscasters used to say. (Do they still? I don't know.)

 

[JackTorrance]

Indeed, @d4rk3lf has many good points.
And now, we are discussing... and discussing in specific and specifics. Much better than debating or just making broad declarative statements about the whole, all over again.

I'm pondering replying to his last post item by item again, as there are really great things to mention and clarify.
Just need to find the time to do it.
"More at 11" as TV newscasters used to say. (Do they still? I don't know.)

God, time flies by very quickly, especially with guys in their early 40's not determined to waste their lives any further like they had with their youth.

 

[Ent]

guys in their early 40's

Ah yes, the youths among us, starting to see things a little differently than before.
Just wait, friend Jack... the revelations are usually only just beginning by the 40s.
(Or at least...we hope they are. Not always true.)

 

[JackTorrance]

Anyways, Amazon has dealt with the criticism in the most played-out but worst form of action. Allow me to demonstrate:
"Hey guys, our new show is doing poorly! What to do?"
"Well, maybe we could try to keep accurate to Tolkien's world."
"No. That's too much work."
"Call them an ist and phobe, after all, its only gonna result in even more criticism."
"Perfect move!"
Later...
"Why are we still failing?"
"Play out the ist and phobe thing again!"

 

[Ent]

Meh. I can't get fussed up about that either.
It's not related to Tolkien, which is my interest., but may be their decision on what a 'strategic marketing move' would be when they've infuriated so many. The question becomes 'what crowd can I attract to my cause...'. In a sense, not a bad move from that perspective
In other words... like how they did the thing to begin with... 'it's their choice.'
So again, it infuriates some, and pleases others. 'Perspective...' whose reigns? In this case, theirs, all the way around.

A wise man once said "Who among us is without flaw?" Can't recall exactly who. That's a perspective I can admire.

 

[JackTorrance]

Meh. I can't get fussed up about that either.
It's not related to Tolkien, which is my interest., but may be their decision on what a 'strategic marketing move' would be when they've infuriated so many. The question becomes 'what crowd can I attract to my cause...'. In a sense, not a bad move from that perspective
In other words... like how they did the thing to begin with... 'it's their choice.'
So again, it infuriates some, and pleases others. 'Perspective...' whose reigns? In this case, theirs, all the way around.

A wise man once said "Who among us is without flaw?" Can't recall exactly who. That's a perspective I can admire.

Yeah, I feel burnt out now, best to let this thread die.

 

[LaurelinBearsFruit]

A wise man once said "Who among us is without flaw?" Can't recall exactly who. That's a perspective I can admire.

Reminds me of something the Buddha said. "Do not be concerned with what others have done or left undone. Concentrate only on what you yourself have done or left undone."

 

[JackTorrance]

Reminds me of something the Buddha said. "Do not be concerned with what others have done or left undone. Concentrate only on what you yourself have done or left undone."

Good advice.

 

[LaurelinBearsFruit]

That Buddha fella knew a thing or two. 👍

 

[d4rk3lf]

A wise man once said "Who among us is without flaw?" Can't recall exactly who. That's a perspective I can admire.

Well. from what I know, from New Testament, it's the Christ who says something like above.
The reason was... a prostitute have been caught in act, and by laws in that time, the punishment was to stone her to death.
Then Christ came and said something like: "Who is without sin, let him throw the first stone".
And nobody did.

The irony of the event is not because nobody throw the stone (because, everyone knew that they were not without sins) , but nobody knew Christ is without sins, so actually, technically he alone, could throw the stone. But he didn't.
---------------------------
Now, I know that in this forum there's a plenty of persons with different believes (or disbelieves), and I don't want to "convert" anyone to believe in Christ or anything... above sample is just an example of the type of messages Ent mentioned, and I wanted to gave it a full view how we Christians view it (or.. just me (I can't spoke in the name of all Christians)).

And btw, what @LaurelinBearsFruit mentioned about what Buddha said, is very interesting.
And I have huge respect for Buddha, beside that sentence.
That person knew moral so well... and that is only important in my mind.

 

[Annatar]

The nice thing about these quotations from the New Testament is that in many (or even most) cases they can be accepted and considered meaningful even if you are rather agnostic. This is the foundation of our Western philosophy.

 

[Aldarion]

And ruination will apparently continue in the second season:

They are not only ignoring Tolkien, but going directly against him. And some of the stuff is just insane.

 

[Annatar]

And ruination will apparently continue in the second season:

They are not only ignoring Tolkien, but going directly against him. And some of the stuff is just insane.

Can you please summarize this briefly?
I have decided to stop listening to "Nerd of the Rings", as he seems to have been paid for benevolent and unreflective comments on the series (or for advertising) in the past.

 

[Radaghast]

Here's a screen capture of all the alleged leaks.