🧙Saruman and Narya

[Ithrynluin]

From Unfinished Tales: The Istari:

And the Grey Messenger took the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest.

I am assuming Saruman knew of Gandalf's possession of Narya at the time of the LOTR, since it says that 'after a time he became aware of this gift'.

Why didn't Saruman wrest Narya from Gandalf during Gandalf's imprisonment in Orthanc?

Did Gandalf not bear the Ring with him at all times?

 

[Niniel]

Maybe Gandalf had hidden it so well Saruman couldn't find it. And I don't think that Gandalf would let Sayrman take his ring. Even though Saruman was more powerful at that time, I think he would get seriously hurt if he tried to take it from Gandalf. And, if it turned out that Saruman knew where Gandalf's ring was and had known it for some time, I think Sauron would ge very angry with him.

 

[BlackCaptain]

Well Gandalf said 'They imprisoned me' atop orthanc... So I'm guessing that means some Orcs took Gandalf to the top. And I don't think that a Wizard would wrestle with another Wizard for something in the others' pocket. Iduno... It just wouldnt be in character for Saruman

 

[FrankSinatra]

Ring

Sauron never knew where the three were held.

So i wonder why Saruman never divulged this tantalising piece of information?

We all know he only did things to benefit himself, but after he was deposed, he could have won favour again with Sauron and told him all about it.

Did Sauron know where it was i wonder?

The elves seemed to think not, although Galadriel indicated that he had suspicions.

 

[Ithrynluin]

From Unfinished Tales; The History of Galadriel and Celeborn:

Concerning the Three Rings Sauron could learn nothing from Celebrimbor; and he had him put to death. But he guessed the truth, that the Three had been committed to Elvish guardians: and that must mean to Galadriel and Gil-galad.

Sauron had a rough sketch of where the Three were bestowed even in the Second Age - GG and Lady G. After the demise of Gil-Galad, I think Sauron could have assumed that GG's ring(s) were passed on to another 'mighty' elf - and that must mean Elrond and Círdan.

There is also this passage from UT; The Hunt for the Ring:

About the twenty-second of July they met their companions, the Nazgûl of Dol Guldur, in the Field of Celebrant. There they learned that Gollum had eluded both the Orcs that recaptured him, and the Elves that pursued them, and had vanished. 2 They were told also by Khamûl that no dwelling of Halflings could be discovered in the Vales of Anduin, and that the villages of the Stoors by the Gladden had long been deserted. But the Lord of Morgul, seeing no better counsel, determined still to seek northward, hoping maybe to come upon Gollum as well as to discover the Shire. That this would prove to be not far from the hated land of Lórien seemed to him not unlikely, if it was not indeed within the fences of Galadriel. [color=sky blue]But the power of the White Ring he would not defy, nor enter yet into Lórien[/color]. Passing therefore between Lórien and the Mountains the Nine rode ever on into the North; and terror went before them and lingered behind them; but they did not find what they sought nor learn any news that availed them.

The Witch King (and therefore Sauron) seems to know fairly well that not only is Galadriel a Keeper, but also which Ring she is the keeper of! Sauron definitely knew about Galadriel's ring, and I daresay he knew that one was bestowed in Imladris with Master Elrond.
I think only the location of the Red Ring of Fire (being constantly on the move with Gandalf) could have eluded Sauron at the end of the Third Age.

 

[Gil-Galad]

Re: Ring

Originally posted by FrankSinatra

So i wonder why Saruman never divulged this tantalising piece of information?

We shouldn't forget that Saruman actually betrayed Sauron.He had his own aims and was striving for them.The reason why Saruman didn't tell Sauron about Narya is the same as that of why Saruman didn't tell Sauron about The One Ring.

 

[Glomund]

Maybe Saruman did not take the ring from Gandalf because he had made his own,

But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman; and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger.

and later

And here you will stay, Gandalf the Grey, and rest from journeys. For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!

I would guess his pride and arrogance in his own ability made him think he did not need Gandalfs ring. And the capitalization of Ring-maker backs this up. Tolkien almost always capitalized Ring when talking of the rings of power, so perhaps this was his way of showing us that it was a powerful ring, at least in Sarumans mind, since ring is lower case in the first quote when Gandalf says he wore a ring.

As for if Sauron knew where the 3 were bestowed, I think that while he was sure who had them, he did not actually know. It is like the fact that we are all sure the light in the fridge goes off when the door closes, but unless we climb inside and shut the door, we can never know. This may seem like a insignificant bit of doubt, but along with his ignorance of the nature of the 3 (since he never touched them, he might have thought them weapons of conquest like the One) he could not act on his assumptions of their locations, because if he was wrong, whomever did hold a ring he had thought elswhere could move up from the flank or rear and destroy his army, like had happened when he had first attempted to sieze the three and he was caught between Elrond and Gil-Galad.and if he was with his army (as he would have to be if he was right about who held the rings) he might have had his latest form destroyed and taken another thousand or so years to re-establish himself.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Glomund
Maybe Saruman did not take the ring from Gandalf because he had made his own,
I would guess his pride and arrogance in his own ability made him think he did not need Gandalfs ring.

I would think that since Saruman begrudged the fact that the ring was given to Gandalf and not to himself, he would want to possess it - to increase his own power and humble Gandalf, even if the Ring couldn't serve his own ends (Saruman was out for domination not preservation).

 

[Luthien Tunivel]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Why didn't Saruman wrest Narya from Gandalf during Gandalf's imprisonment in Orthanc?

We're all forgeting something. Only Frodo could see Galadriel's ring, since only he was the ring bearer. The other hobbits couldn't see it. So, Saruman might not have been able to see the ring if Gandalf wanted to show it. And it did say at the end of the third book, when the elves are leaving, that Gandalf wore the ring openly for the first time. (Sorry I can't quote directly from the book because my dad took my books away as punishment for a 'bad attidude'.)

 

[FrankSinatra]

Of course Gil Galad! I never thought of that to be honest.

But i meant after Saruman was deposed, he was more or less beaten, so why not try to win favour a little?

 

[Elf-Archer755]

Good point, Gil-galad!!