🧙Saruman and the 🐴horses, was that weird to you too?

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by pohuist


I will have to concur with Aragil on the basis that it does not seem plausible that Tolkien would include a completely extraneous person to that book not referencing him anywhere else in the book.

Why wouldn't he include a mysterious person? Tolkien does like to incorporate some mysterious characters into his work - look at Tom Bombadil - he never tells us what he is and mystery is part of the magnificence of Tolkien's work.
BTW that was very well put aragil,your theory certainly has more "weight" than mine,but one thing though - why weren't the horses scared away if it was indeed a phantom of Saruman? I'm not exactly sure what happens in that part of the book so would someone please clarify that for me.
Leaving aside all matters of plausibility,wouldn't it be wonderful if that really was Maglor,straying into Fangorn,a character straight out of the Elder days,making a brief appearance but not wanting to come into contact with anyone until the world is changed? I think the reason I brought Maglor up in the first place was that I liked it better that way,though a phantom of Saruman is probably nearer to the truth.

 

[Theoden]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Could it be possible that the person who appeared to Aragorn&co. had no connection to LOTR whatsoever? Someone said in another thread that maybe that "old man" was Maglor,wandering the lands,but remaining secret.What do you think?

wow, That is deep. I like this theory the best. It seems to put a mystical side to that otherwise seamingly out of place scene.

 

[pohuist]

Originally posted by ithrynluin


Why wouldn't he include a mysterious person? Tolkien does like to incorporate some mysterious characters into his work - look at Tom Bombadil - he never tells us what he is and mystery is part of the magnificence of Tolkien's work.

Now, but that's a totally different strory. Tom Bombadil plays a very important part in the story, and several chapters are devoted to it. Although, we don't know his identity and the debate on that topic still stems. Maglor would not only be misterious, but also extraneous -- doesn't add or take away much from the story. You theory is beautiful, but doesn't seem likely to me. W/r/to the horses I think one of the 3 said that at first they sound scared but then joyful. (Sorry, can't quote -- don't have the book here). So, they could be scared at first and them met Shadowfax. Granted, though, it still would have been just the impression of one of the three companions. One more thing, I don't think Saruman would have ventured so far out of Orthanc, must have been his phantom. The reason -- in UT it is discussed in the chapter "the hunt for the ring" that Sauron was aware that Saruman double-crossed him and Saruman knew that Sauron knows. So, I think Saruman would have been afraid to lose Orthanc's protection.

 

[elf boy]

Thanks fer the correction about who was there, I was thinking that there was a hobbit there at the time, but it appears I was wrong. Good thing i'm reading the LOTR again huh?

Oh by the way I was looking up the Maglor thing and I found this...
Here is a quote from the Sil about Maglor:
"And it is told of Maglor that he could not endure the pain with which the Silmaril tormented him; and he cast it at last into the Sea, and thereafter he wandered ever upon the shores, singing in pain and regret beside the waves."

If this was Maglor, how did he get so far inland? After he cast it into the Sea, he stayed by the waves (therefore the Sea)... So I can't see how it could be him, although it was a very interesting opinion.

 

[Ceorl]

Huh! Did I miss something when reading this thread?

How did Maglor get involved in this? This is the Maglor that was last seen around 300 years earlier song on the beach. The torment of the Silmaril was enough to force his brother into jumping down a volcano, and Maedhros had alot more experience in resisting torment having hung from his wrist from the walls of Thangorodrim for who knows how long.

What are the chances of him still being alive and wandering through Fangorn Forest several millenia later. He may be immortal but he still has to eat.

And in any case your reasons for saying it wasn't Saruman dont stand up at all, Saruman has been in Isengard mainly for the last century or so, he is guarded at all times and became naturally a little shy about doing personal dirtywork. He has also (upon scouting ahead for his party of orcs) come across the funeral pyre of one of his companies which he believed was carrying the Master Ring. He now believes that the Master Ring is now in the possession of the man he is attacking; not a comforting thought. Therefore he goes with all speed back to Isengard to double and treble the assault on Rohan in the hope of regaining the ring before Theoden discovers its power. Why do you think that he emptyied Isengard so soon afterwards? It was the first thing he did after returning from his trip. He certainly didn't have time to try and lure travellers to his support. He did however set free their steeds so as to cripple them and prevent a message being sent that he was away from home.

As you can see the evidence favouring Saruman being the hooded man is overwhelming and the idea of Maglor being there absurd.

 

[indexerkevin]

Originally posted by Ceorl
Huh! Did I miss something when reading this thread?

......

As you can see the evidence favouring Saruman being the hooded man is overwhelming and the idea of Maglor being there absurd.

I too feel compelled to write strongly about this. Having just reread last night the scene in which the 3 chasers meet back up with Gandalf; Gandalf gives as close as a sure thing description as to it being Saruman as you'll get with many other things that happen in LOTR, and this thread baffles me.

Like for example it appears as if it was probably Galadriel who summons the Grey Company. Then if you wanted to make a thread like this you could for example argue maybe it was really, like say Arwen who did it. Taking the cop perspective she would certainly have motive and opportunity... But in the same scene I mention above in which A, L, and G meet back up with Gandalf, Gandalf relays a message to Aragorn from Galadriel. The text of this message is almost overwhelming evidence that it was in fact Galadriel.

Another example: as far as I know, there is no place in the text, tale of Arwen and Aragorn, or any other place where it uses these exact words: Thorongil was really Aragorn. But yet putting together the clues it is like 99.9999999% certain.

Tolkien was a great writer and often doesn't give you 100% information about a given thing, but I'm one of those who figures that when he makes it 95% clear as to what happens, we should just go with that.... The description by Gandalf of Saruman's coming out to meet the messengers puts it closer to like 98%...

 

[Maeglin]

is it possible that it wasn't Saruman or Maglor? Why couldn't it have been Wormtongue, maybe he was going to meet the orcs. If it was Saruman he would have stayed to fight or to try to get them to join him, at least he wouldn't have ran, and Wormtongue seemed to be afraid of everything.

Just a thought!

 

[Grond]

From The Two Towers, The Riders of Rohan,
'It seems unlikely that I shall have the chance,' said Gimli.
'If you wish to know what I think,' he began again after a while 'I
think it was Saruman. Who else? Remember the words of Jomer: he walks about like an old man hooded and cloaked. Those were the words. He has gone off with our horses, or scared them away, and here we are. There is more trouble coming to us, mark my words!'
'I mark them,' said Aragorn. 'But I marked also that this old man had a
hat not a hood. Still I do not doubt that you guess right, and that we are in peril here, by night or day. Yet in the meantime there is nothing that we can do but rest, while we may. I will watch for a while now, Gimli. I have more need of thought than of sleep.'

From The Two Towers, The White Rider, Gandalf states,
...'You certainly did not see me,' answered Gandalf, 'therefore I must guess that you saw Saruman. Evidently we look so much alike that your desire to make an incurable dent in my hat must be excused.'

From HoMe VII, The Treason of Isengard, The Riders of Rohan,
commentary by Christopher Tolkien, "While this is no more than a guess, I suspect that when my father wrote this he thought that it was Gandalf, and not Saruman, who stood so briefly in the light of the fire...

It seems that there is no definitive answer given by the author. The character's opinions seem to be agreed that it was either Saruman himself or a shade of Saruman. There is no further information in the LotR or any of the other works that I can find.

 

[Maeglin]

I think your right Grond, we'll probably never know the answer for sure.

 

[pohuist]

Originally posted by Glorfindel1187
I think your right Grond, we'll probably never know the answer for sure.

I'll agree with Grond. Definitely wasn't Wormtongue -- he wasn't an old man.

 

[Gil-Galad]

In general I think ithrynluin theory is very interesting and deep and I support it.Maglor may not be part of the history but that doesn't means this person isn't he.At the same time there are too many thinks which don't fit with the theory that is Saruman.
But Grond is right.Nobody can convince others he is right because there aren't much evidences.....and we would argue and argue and argue......

 

[Maeglin]

maglor is dead, it couldn't have been him, wasn't he the elf that was executed by Turin in The Sil?

 

[Galdor]

Maglor was the second son of Feanor. After he threw the last Silmaril into the Sea he was never seen in ME again and his fate is not know for sure.

 

[Maeglin]

oh, thanks for clearing that up for me, what was the name of the elf that was executed for finding Gondolin?

 

[Galdor]

I believe you are talking about Eol father of Maeglin who betrayed Gondolin. And he was not killed for finding Gondolin but for murdering his wife Aredhel who was hit by his spear when he through it at Maeglin.(who at that time was still good.) You might want to go back and read Ch.16 of the Sil.

 

[Maeglin]

I knew he was executed for killing his wife too, but he also was going to be put to death for finding gondolin. But thats beside the point I was just trying to remember what his name was, thanks for refreshing my memory!

Oh, and it was actually a poisoned spear, it took her a while to die. Poor Aredhel.

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by Glorfindel1187
I knew he was executed for killing his wife too, but he also was going to be put to death for finding gondolin. But thats beside the point I was just trying to remember what his name was, thanks for refreshing my memory!

Oh, and it was actually a poisoned spear, it took her a while to die. Poor Aredhel.

He was given a choice (right before he tried to kill Maeglin)... he could either remain in Gondolin for the rest of his life or die there. Here's the relavent passage from the Sil,

from The Silmarillion, Chapter 16, Of Maeglin,
Then Turgon sat in his high seat holding his staff of doom, and in a stern voice spoke: 'I will not debate with you, Dark Elf. By the swords of the Noldor alone are your sunless woods defended. Your freedom to wander there wild you owe to my kin; and but for them long since you would have laboured in thraldom in the pits of Angband. And here I am King; and whether you will it or will it not, my doom is law. This choice only is given to you: to abide here, or to die here; and so also for your son.'

Then Eöl looked into the eyes of King Turgon, and he was not daunted, but stood long without word or movement while a still silence fell upon the hall; and Aredhel was afraid, knowing that he was perilous. Suddenly, swift as a serpent, he seized a javelin that he held hid beneath his cloak and cast it at Maeglin, crying: 'The second choice I take and for my son also! you shall not hold what is mine!'

But Aredhel sprang before the dart, and it smote her in the shoulder; and Eöl was overborne by many and set in bonds, and led away, while others tended Aredhel. But Maeglin looking upon his father was silent.

It was appointed that Eöl should be brought on the next day to the King's judgement; and Aredhel and Idril moved Turgon to mercy. But in the evening Aredhel sickened, though the wound had seemed little, and she fell into the darkness, and the night she died; for the point of the javelin was poisoned, though none knew it until too late.

Therefore when Eöl was brought before Turgon he found no mercy; and they led him forth to the Caragdûr, a precipice of black rock upon the north side of the hill of Gondolin, there to cast him down from the sheer walls of the city. And Maeglin stood by and said nothing; but at the last Eöl cried out: 'So you forsake your father and his kin, ill-gotten son! Here shall you fail of all your hopes, and here may you yet die the same death as I.'

Then they cast Eöl over the Caragdûr, and so he ended, and to all in Gondolin it seemed just; but Idril was troubled, and from that day she mistrusted her kinsman.

 

[Gil-Galad]

In fact Eol did very stupid things,he would live happily in Gondolin withou any problems.

 

[Maeglin]

Too bad he was too dumb to think of that!

 

[Gil-Galad]

Why I'm not surprised from your thoughts Glorfindel1187?