🧙Saruman the Balrog of Moria?

It was simply a clarification of what'order' meant:

It means which 'people' you belonged to.
'Order' in this sense has nothing to do with the varying power & majesty within those 'peoples'.

Ok?

Gotta run.....

Originally posted by Bucky
It was simply a clarification of what'order' meant:

It means which 'people' you belonged to.
'Order' in this sense has nothing to do with the varying power & majesty within those 'peoples'.

Ok?

Gotta run.....

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I know, we have a government, it is called a government, but there are different positions of power. Gothmog was of higher 'power' or 'stature' as Bucky said. The Maiar were the Maiar, but some were more powerful than others.

"And Curunir Lan, Saruman the White, fell from his high errand, and becoming proud and impatient and enamoured of power sought to have his own will by force, and to oust Sauron; but he was ensnared by that dark spirit, mightier than he."
Unfinished Tales Page 505

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So, obviously Sauron was more powerful than Saruman, and Gothmog more powerful than the other balrogs. There were 'degrees' of 'power' amongst the Maiar, Sauron was at the top along with Osse, Eonwe and Ilmare, he was one of the most powerful Maia in existence. That is why Olorin was afraid of going to ME, that is why Saruman got ensnared. Obviously the are degrees of power. Tolkien states it in the Sil many times. Yes, the Maiar were all Ainur, along with the Valar, but they were classified in to Valar and Maiar, and the Maiar were again broken up in to different 'degrees'. This question has been bothering me now for some time. There are 'degrees' of Maiar, that is undisputed. Now the top 'degrees' were the most powerful i.e. Eonwe, Ilmare, Osse and Sauron. I am unsure of Melian. If these Maiar were so powerful, than is it possible that they could have been Valar, but just missed out? It's just a theory. Imagine Sauron being one of the Valar!

Power & Rank Chart

Someone should come up with a power and rank chart stating who in the valar, maiar, and middle earth are the most powerful and who is at the top of each rank and so forth.

I dont know about anyone else here, but it seems to me that people are just looking into it to much when they make the assumption that saruman could have been the balrog in moria. If saruman had the ability to change into the form of a balrog, why could galdalf not also do that?

Because it is said in "characters from tolkien" by david day that:
"they were forbidden to come forth in power as maiar. They were limited to the form of men and the powers that might be found within the mortal world."

Therefore it was immpossible for saruman to tranform into a balrog. And even if he did, has anyone here ever heard of a balrog transforming back into a normal maiar? cause saruman would have to have done that in order to still fit into his usuall wizard attire later in the books?....
im not sure thats possible.....

nevertheless, he would have passed into the west when he died, just like gandalfs spirit did when he died, and if that happened, unlike gandalf, i daresay that after changing into the form of a balrog and trying to kill the other istari, he wouldnt have been allowed back into the east.....

SpencerC18 said:

Power & Rank Chart

Someone should come up with a power and rank chart stating who in the valar, maiar, and middle earth are the most powerful and who is at the top of each rank and so forth.

Click to expand...

Agree.

SpencerC18 said:

Power & Rank Chart

Someone should come up with a power and rank chart stating who in the valar, maiar, and middle earth are the most powerful and who is at the top of each rank and so forth.

Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly!

Keeping in mind how subjective this kind of thing can be, Hannahs, here's one:

Here's another:

And welcome to the forum!