🧙Saruman - the unanswered questions.

This is a bit off the current flow of the thread, but I feel tht it is important to mention.

There seems to be the idea floating around that Saruman was the leader of the Istari and the White Council in the sense that he commands the others in the group. This is not in my opinion the case. Saruman was the head of the council only in the sense that someone had to be. There is no direct textual (film adaptations aside) evidence that Saruman is more powerful or any wiser than Gandalf. Rather Saruman is simply more specialized in his knowlidge of works of craft. This specialized knowlidge would make him a good canidate for first of equals status in the council, but not a position of command. Saruman is basically the President Pro Temp. Or in other words his vote breaks any possible ties. Without a moderating voice the council would be a comitee. A nice position to have surely, but not exactly what one would call actual leadership.

Of this Order the number is unknown; but of those that came to the North of Middle-earth, where there was most hope (because of the remnant of the Dunedain and of the Eldar that abode there), the chiefs was five. The first to come was one of noble mien and bearing, with raven hair, and a fair voice, and he was clad in white; great skill he had in works of hand, and he was regarded by well-nigh all, even by the Eldar, as the head of the Order...

It may be seen that they were free each to do what they could in this mission; that they were not commanded or supposed to act together as a small central body of power and wisdom; and that each had different powers and inclinations and were chosen by the Valar with this in mind.
Unfinished Tales Part IV, section 2

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This basicly means that each of the members of the Order were independant operatives, free to follow the wisdom of the council as they saw fit. In fact, this is more that likely the reason that Saruman became the leader of the council to begin with. Galadriel, and most likely Elrond as well, wished for Gandalf to assume the role of leader, but he refused stateing that he would be bound by no allegience or duty save to those who sent him.

Speaking of those who sent them, the conflict between Gandalf and Saruman started even before they sailed east from Valinor.

Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth. But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.

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Thanks for your time
I now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion already in progress


RD

I can't altogether agree with you, RD.

'[...] I might perhaps have consulted Saruman the White, but something always held be back.'
'Who is he?' asked Frodo. 'I have never heard of him before.'
'Maybe not,' answered Gandalf. 'Hobbits are, or were, no concern of his. Yet he is great among the Wise. He is the chief of my order and the head of the council. [...]

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From the Lord of the Rings; The Shadow of the Past.
Gandalf clearly sees him as the headman of the Order of the Istari.

Let me disagree with you Arvedui (OMG what am I doing,to disagree with you=madness )

That was Gandalf's personal opinion.He was modest and humble and he did not consider himself the leader and the most powerful of the Istari.It was easier for him to consider Curunir the chief of his order.

And Olorin ,who was clad in grey,and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council asked what Manwe would have of him.

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But Olorin declared that he was too weak for such a task,an that he feared Sauron.

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Can't we infer from these quotes that he was humble and modest?He sat at the edge( maybe lack of self esteem or a desire not to draw attenton to him).According to his opinion he was not strong enough.Modesty was one of the main features he had,I suppose.That can explain his words concerning Saruman.He accepted him as a leader and did not doubt even for a minute his leadership.
But that he was weak and lesser than Saruman was only his opinion(due to his modesty),for the Valar did not think so :

...at that time Varda looked up and said :"Not as a third;"

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Alright, alright, I am completely aware of all that has been said, and now were just going around in circles, we'll get to Saruman's Ring after we have discussed Narya. OK?

Alright, I acknowledge what I am saying is absurd, I know and always have known that it is only the One that can find the Rngs of Power, not vice versa, I am merely speculating on the fact that Saruman could have turned Narya into something that he could use.

Letters of JRRT: Letter #131 to Milton Waldman
"The chief power (of all the Rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved - this is more or less an Elvish motive. But they also enhanced the natural powers of a possessor - thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptable into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron ('the Necromancer': so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible."

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Now, it's interesting that neither Gandalf nor Elrond detected the One whilst it was in the keeping of Bilbo and Frodo. An argument might be that Tolkien had not considered the Ring in The Hobbit, which we all know. However, Gandalf certainly gets a sense of it in The Lord of the Rings after the act of Bilbo, not wanting to 'let it go'. To say that this was a result of Narya is pure folly, it seems it was Gandalf's wisdom that helped him discover the truth. I also understand that if the One isn't claimed by the bearer, than the Three and all the others are fundamentally 'safe'. But what I can't let go is the fact that these Rings must have had some sort of sense, how could they be completely blind? Unfortunately I can't find too much textual evidence to support this. However, another reason that Saruman may have wanted Narya was because (as it says above), it may have 'enhanced his natural powers'.

Gil-Galad:
From The Silmarillion:

Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin.

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He might have been humble, yes, but he was the wisest of all Maiar, so I guess that he could recognize a leader when one was established. And if he wanted Curunír to be the leader, than he obviously was.
And if I remember right, Galadriel also confirmes somewhere that Curunír was the leader of the White Council, even though she had wanted Olórin to take that position.

Ulairi:
Could Saruman have turned Narya into something that he could use?
Maybe. He was a Maia of Aulë, if my memory haven't failed, so he probably knew a thing or two about making things. I don't know if he could outdo the works of Celebrimbor, but I think that it is possible that he could use a Ring such as Narya to suit his own needs.

I think that we have something to thank Círdan for, then...

Originally posted by Arvedui
Gil-Galad:
He might have been humble, yes, but he was the wisest of all Maiar, so I guess that he could recognize a leader when one was established. And if he wanted Curunír to be the leader, than he obviously was.
And if I remember right, Galadriel also confirmes somewhere that Curunír was the leader of the White Council, even though she had wanted Olórin to take that position.

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Indeed.He was wise enough to recognize Curunir's leadership.He was wise enough not to be leaded by proud and desire for leadership like Saruman,but that does not mean he was not as powerful as him.
Galadriel confirmed something which was known by everybody.Saruman was recognized by everyone,though some(Galadriel,Cirdan) of them considered Gandalf to be the better choice.

Good, so question one and two are proven and could possibly be flaws in Tolkien's work.

Saruman, as mentioned above is of 'higher Valinorean stature', Gandalf may have been the wisest, but don't let us forget who won the fight between the two. Also, I find it interesting that he is referred to as 'Saruman the Wise', when we all know that Olorin was quite obviously the wiser of the two. Perhaps it was a name given to Saruman by Gandalf himself, to show Gandalf's true humility. Who knows?

If this was Gandalf's tactics, then it reminds me of one of 'Murphy's Laws of Combat:'

Always share a foxhole with someone braver than you. It gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.

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Maybe it wasn't humility, maybe he was smart?

I daresay that the reason things didn't go otherwise from what we read in the book is because Tolkien was satisfied with the way he wrote it, inconsistencies and all, and/or he didn't consider any more possibilities:

"...I should like to say something here with reference to the many opinions or guesses that I have received... As a guide I had only my own feelings for what is appealing or moving, and for many, the guide was inevitably at fault. ...even from the points of view of many who have enjoyed my story there is much that fails to please. ...I find from the letters that I have received that passages or chapters that are to some a blemish are all by others specially approved. The most critical reader of all, myself, now finds many defects, major and minor, but being fortunately under no obligation either to review the book or to write it again, he will pass over these in silence. except one that has been noted by others: the book is too short." [italics mine]

—Tolkien, Forward to the Second Edition

So while asking questions about why this was done or wasn't, etc. is fun, it's only second guessing. It appears that Tolkien was aware of at least some of the things that give rise to questions and Monday morning quarterbacking, and to all of it, merely said, as it were, "Swaha!" (Sanskrit for "Just let it all go.")

—Lotho

Originally posted by Arvedui
If this was Gandalf's tactics, then it reminds me of one of 'Murphy's Laws of Combat:'

Maybe it wasn't humility, maybe he was smart?

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Very, very true. Using Saruman as Sauron's...scapegoat. Sauron would ignore Gandalf and go after Saruman. Saruman had control of a fortress, making him a target. Anything that can refute the power of Sauron, and is even a threat to it must be destroyed before he goes after Gandalf. I like it Arvedui!

Lotho_Pimple, you're absolutely right. The problems with Tolkien's novels, is whenever he put pen to paper he would first have to research the hell out of his own novels, and by the time he has all the information he needed, he wouldn't feel like writing anymore! This is all because his world was so complex, so much going on at once.

Originally posted by Ulairi
but don't let us forget who won the fight between the two...

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What fight. I never heard of any fight. For all we know, Saruman simply asked Gandalf to check out his new room and then quickly locked the door.

Perhaps it was a name given to Saruman by Gandalf himself, to show Gandalf's true humility. Who knows?

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I would think that it was a name given to Saruman by Saruman is a better guess.


RD

Yeah, I know what you mean by the fight, although I believe it is simply an inferrable thing. However, one thing that does bother me is that Gandalf does suspect Saruman before he even goes to Orthanc, this is mentioned in The Shadow of the Past quite frequently and I'm surprised no one brought it up! It sounds as though Gandalf was on his guard, so, a duel between the two sounds even more likely.

If Saruman knew of Narya, why didn't he tell Sauron?

Because Saruman was working for himself, he was only pretending to work for Sauron...

My question certainly would be why the heck* did Gandalf go to Orthanc when he suspected Saruman? He says he doesn't trust his lore, and neither does he trust him. However, he goes anyway. Another interesting experiment might be that Gandalf at Imladris decides to tell Frodo to put on the One Ring, and claim it for himself. That way, Gandalf, having Narya, could certainly attempt to 'break' the power of the One over his, or at least learn something valuable. Sauron already knew that the One was being held by Frodo at Rivendell, he would have received that news from the Nazgul. Of course a problem might be the risk of Frodo wielding the One, it would perhaps corrupt him instantly.





Language people
RD

I think that you put way to much into Narya, Ulairi.

The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance - this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor - thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron ('The Necromancer': so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of 'The Hobbit'): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.
The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility.

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Letters, # 131

Only the Ruling Ring had the power to contain

the power of all the others, and controlled them, so that its wearer could see the thoughts of all those that used the lesser rings, could govern all that they did, and in the end could utterly enslave them.

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Letters, # 131

It doesn't work the other way around.

I know, I am an extremely theoretical person. I apologize.