Lhunithiliel
Fëanorean
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2002
- Messages
- 3,128
I don't think that the Númenóreans could defeat the Valar; if it seems like I said that, sorry. I said that the Númenóreans thought they could invade Valinor. Since they are not lunatics, they had a pretty strong army; strong enough, I think, to defeat Morgoth's armies at the end of the First Age. I think that the Númenórean war machine could take any other army on history -- including an army of Valinorean Elves. BUT, I think that the Valar themselves are a different story. Even if the Númenóreans could wipe out every Elf in Aman, they still had to deal with the Valar -- and I don't think they could do that, because the Valar were pure spirit. Even if Númenór had more military power than the Valar, they could not ever defeat them -- or so I think. But the question was Númenor x Morgoth, not Númenor x Valar...
Hmm, Valar and Valinorean Maiar -- good Maiar -- were not incarnates. They could shed their bodies as raiments. Or at least the Valaquenta says so, if I'm not going crazy.
Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue; and because they were drawn into the World by love of the Children of Ilúvatar, for whom they hoped, they took shape after that manner which they had beheld in the Vision of Ilúvatar, save only in majesty and splendour. Moreover their shape comes of their knowledge of the visible World, rather than of the World itself; and they need it not, save only as we use raiment, and yet may be naked and suffer no loss of our being. Therefore the Valar may walk, if they will, unclad, and then even the Eldar cannot perceive them, though they be present.
Letter 211
Since the Valar had no language of their own, not needing one, they had no 'true' names, only identities, and their names were conferred on them by the Elves, being in origin all, as it were, 'nicknkames', referring to some striking peculiarity, function, or need.
. But even as the vanguard of Maedhros came upon the Orcs, Morgoth loosed his last strength, and Angband was emptied. There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons, and Glaurung father of dragons. The strength and terror of the Great Worm were now great indeed, and Elves and Men withered before him; and he came between the hosts of Maedhros and Fingon and swept them apart.
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, and the War of Wrath. There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Anfauglith could not contain it; and all the North was aflame with war.
But it availed him not. The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth; and the uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after. And such few as were left of the three houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought upon the part of the Valar; and they were avenged in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galdor and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others new-come out of the east, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.
Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown and his power dispersed, Morgoth quailed, and he dared not to come forth himself. But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared, and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; and so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of the Valar was driven back, for the coming of the dragons was with great thunder, and lightning, and a tempest of fire.
But Eärendil came, shining with white flame, and about Vingilot were gathered all the great birds of heaven and Thorondor was their captain, and there was battle in the air all the day and through a dark night of doubt. Before the rising of the sun Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin. Then the sun rose, and the host of the Valar prevailed, and well-nigh all the dragons were destroyed; and all the pits of Morgoth were broken and unroofed, and the might of the Valar descended into the deeps of the earth. There Morgoth stood at last at bay, and yet unvaliant. He fled into the deepest of his mines, and sued for peace and pardon; but his feet were hewn from under him, and he was hurled upon his face. Then he was bound with the chain Angainor which he had worn aforetime, and his iron crown they beat into a collar for his neck, and his head was bowed upon his knees. And the two Silmarils which remained to Morgoth were taken from his crown, and they shone unsullied beneath the sky; and Eönwë took them, and guarded them.
Thus an end was made of the power of Angband in the North, and' the evil realm was brought to naught; and out of the deep prisons a multitude of slaves came forth beyond all hope into the light of day, and they looked upon a world that was changed. For so great was the fury of those adversaries that the northern regions of the western world were rent asunder, and the sea roared in through many chasms, and there was confusion and great noise; and rivers perished or found new paths, and the valleys were upheaved and the hills trod down; and Sirion was no more.
Myths Transformed. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth - hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'. Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently 'incarnate': for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures.
Melkor 'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the hroa, the 'flesh' or physical matter of Arda. He attempted to identify himself with it
Posted by Eriol
Am I the only one who is impressed by the description of Ar-Pharazôn's fleet? I really can't see how the armies of Morgoth could ever defeat that.
Even if we had no knowledge of it,' he says, 'we could not reasonably doubt that the Valar had a lambe of their own. We know that all members of their order were incarnated by their own desire, and that most of them chose to take forms like those of the Children of Eru, as they name us. In such forms they would take on all the characters of the Incarnates that were due to the co-operation of hröa with indwelling fëa, for otherwise the assumption of these forms would have been needless, and they arrayed themselves in this manner long before they had any cause to appear before us visibly. Since, then, the making of a lambe is the chief character of an Incarnate, the Valar, having arrayed them in this manner, would inevitably during their long sojourn in Arda have made a lambe for themselves.
Another Interesting Question: If Numenoreans hadn't taken part in the affairs of Middle-Earth in second age, and gained Sauron hate, then would Sauron have left them alone, or would he have thought of them as a potential threat and tried to dispose them off?
Where did you ever get that idea?
Myths TransformedSauron was 'freater' effectively in the Second age then Morgoth at the end of the first. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature he had not yet fallen so low
Originally posted by Bucky
Where did you ever get that idea?
Could the Numenoreans have defeated Morgoth's armies at the height of their power?
Never, if just for the simple fact that they would not have a single warrior that could defeat a balrog.
The only beings that defeated balrogs were Maiar & High Elves - actually, they all just broke even as in each case we know of, both combatants died.
"They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen & Unseen they have tremendous power."
So, that's where the High Elves get their power to fight balrogs, Ringwraiths & such.
Well two high-elves couldnt do something which Isildur did.
I never asked who would be attacking who, I just ask a generalized question, including all possible scenarios.Well, I was assuming the Numenoreans would be invading M-E & a battle on an open plain would ensure.
Nobody said a thing about INVADING Numenor....
Beleg, sorry since it's your namesake, but he wasn't in the same ballpark power-wise as the High Elves.
No, I think Ringwraiths & balrogs are in the same spirit or 'unseen' realm. Different levels of power, but still necessary to have the power the High Elves or Maiar have in the 'unseen' world to sucessfully oppose them.
Tolkien says as much himself.
Infact, Tolkien doesn't say that. It is merely an [Incorrect] analogy you are making.
The High-elves were glorified because they had lived in the bless of Aman, which won't strengthen them physically.
Tolkien merely mentions that the High-elves [Note Gandalf didn't say 'only' the High elves] weild a tremendous power against undeed [and living].
We know nothing about what type of powers the Sindar [Of Doriath]
They could be slain while the Ringwraiths couldn't [They could only be destroyed when their respective rings were destroyed or the one ring failed].
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